03 → Harry Vincent @harry.vincent
Harry (They/Them) is a freelance designer from Southend-on-Sea, England. Their work resides at the convergence of gothic and contemporary visual culture. This interview is available in it’s original audio form, or through the text transcript below... Enjoy!
RTG: How has your sort of design Journey looked so far? You said you didn’t do education for it?
Harry Vincent: Yeah, I can kind of outline. Yeah, I feel like mine’s quite untypical so all very fortunate. I don’t believe in Iuck. I Always feel like luck is preparation and sort of opportunities overlapping so yeah, you could be opportunity to becomes you never prepared that’s been my mindset, but basically I was like a mess I just did sixth form at school and went to an all Catholic Boys School, and yeah…
My God, okay.
I mean, yeah that comes a lot of things itself, but luckily my art teacher was very the sort of hard, uh, I don’t know if you’ve seen the film Whiplash? Because it was very much that. It worked but it was borderline kind of abusive.
Yeah, yeah with JK Simmons!
But luckily they don’t work there anymore. They're retired and everything, but yeah I remember not doing all the UCAS kind of forms because I felt like I couldn’t spend however much uni costs like twenty or forty grand of my future selve’s money. I think at the time I just didn’t... Like anyone creative you kind of just go okay, well I can paint, I can do all this. What can I actually do with that as a career or make money and I think I remember I just applied to sort of any general art colleges or courses. So just like the classic kind of Central Saint Martins, Goldsmiths, local ones in Southend and all of them said no. And if that was a sign of—I just remember like literally crying at train stations in my town. I was like, I’ve got no future, nothing’s gonna happen... you get up into your head about it. I think that weekend I’d saved up a hundred and fifty quid from—I used to work at a bar washing glasses and stuff just to sort of earn like.. It was 20 quid in cash and hand, it was sick. I used that to sort of make a little booklet. It just had all my artworks in it. I think I need to try and find a copy of it because it looks cringe now but the time obviously worked. Yeah, I got 100 of them printed. Cost me about 150 quid, and I just sent them out to creative agencies, anything that was like art related roles. I thought artworking was making artworks. Clearly I’m wrong about that. I’ve learned that now, but all these types of roles and I think of the hundred I sent I got like five responses which is very standard I guess.
“I just applied to sort of any general art colleges or courses. So just like the classic kind of Central Saint Martins, Goldsmiths, local ones in Southend and all of them said no.”
One was a little design agency called Grow Creative Co. They were at Leigh-on-Sea, which is funnily enough where I’m at now. Just very funny. And they have an apprenticeship scheme so I think your salary is whatever the minimum wage was back in 2015 and then the government will subsidise that the rest of it. So technically you could for the agencies doing them like it’s really good labour really. Obviously it works if you get taken on, I think a lot of people exploited that program where to get half as cheap labour but luckily enough I was there for a year as a peasant apprentice. I just did a very brief course in a college... you know when they teach you the basics of Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, that sort of thing. I was doing it every day, it was kind of a bit hand-holdy. But basically I was at that agency for a year as an apprentice then I stayed there for two years. It was mainly doing website design, branding, all this type of stuff but it was specifically in print and I think that was just my foot in the door. I didn’t really realise it at the time but that’s such a kind of rare opportunity, it doesn’t often happen like that, you know? Obviously a lot of time people abuse apprentices and I was lucky enough to find the job first and then they just happened to do an apprenticeship. Whereas some people, or most people... It’s the other way around where often the workplace doesn’t really want them (after their apprenticeship) if that makes sense? So I feel very lucky to, because I’m gonna say lucky just so people know what that means but I feel very lucky that that worked out and I think I just outgrew it, basically. Like I think I’m the type of person that I kind of get bored of things quite quickly and if that’s whatever I don’t have diagnosed yet coming through but I tend to rinse things and kind of get bored in about a year or two; that’s my typical pattern and I think I did like with sports I did rugby and then sort’ve changed to like tennis for a bit, then I did air rifle shooting, it’s really crazy!
Yeah, hahaha.
Yeah, you chew it up, don’t you? So yeah, and then I took the big step up and I did the same thing again. This time around obviously it had a lot more design work. I made a new CV. It was all red, finally... and this one had obviously proper work in it, website design, logos, everything. I can probably send you some copies of those if you want as part of this. I think it’s quite nice to see but yeah I then just did the same thing: rinse and repeat formula I made a hundred of them. It cost a bit more this time but because I had a job for two years it was worth it. But by the way, I’m still at home at this point. So I only left home two years ago. I think that’s a big aspect of why I’ve been able to do what I do is the fact that I had the shelter of having a very sort of stable home life, which I think is something a lot of people can maybe overlook in their lives. Which I think that just helped the fact that I could go home, my parents kinda knew what I wanted to do and they didn’t obstruct me at all and like, the whole document was literally my dad’s idea because he was just like, why don’t you just make a little document print out because people printed things, it sounds very old doesn’t it? But you know, I guess it worked, I think in an age where people send you emails all day everyday I think it maybe was quite refreshing at the time.
But yeah, so February 2018 comes round. I’m kind of looking for roles. I think I had about 16 interviews over three days up in London and one of those was a design agency called Impero and they do advertising, mainly alcohol. But it was a very different world. I was like 21, 22? And yeah my first proper design job, not that the other one wasn’t, but this is London, it’s completely different. It was just kind of a big step up. It was all about presentations, key visuals, like a whole new skill set was kind of being formed and luckily because I think my age and my interest t the time I was able to work on some cool stuff there which is all about Havana Club, rebranding all these huge alcohol Brands and I’m just this 21 year old that kind of liked shoes...and so I feel very lucky again at the time because again, that sort’ve overlap happened. But with Impero, unfortunately at the time I think they had an over-servicing problem and I was very frustrated with a lot of how they did things. I Hope they’ve changed now but at the same time I was working really late nights getting home past 7pm, but then getting up at 6 am getting the train and I think I didn’t realise this at the time but I used all that frustration and anger. I just channelled it, when I got that train at 6:54 in the morning, for like 45 minutes until I had to get off. I just made a new post or poster as I used to call them every day.
I think that just saved my heart if I’m being honest. I don’t think you realise that the time that kind of channelling you know, into kind of artwork really, that built my career up. I suddenly had a couple thousand followers to then like twenty and then I changed all my names because I didn’t just do vector artworks anymore. So that was quite crucial I think. Because if I wasn’t frustrated I probably wouldn’t need to have had that outlet. So I guess I dealt with it in a way that worked. Obviously I’d genuinely hate to build up a social profile up today because I think algorithm changes, all this sort of thing on social media particularly is hard or harder... However, yeah that just worked and I started that was when I sort of did stuff for Drop Dead Clothing which is crazy and then I think the biggest thing was working with 30 Seconds to Mars and like Jared Leto and stuff like at the time I was like woah… so all that’s happening in the background with me getting four hours sleep because I was getting up at 6 am clocking out at 7 pm and then that couple of hours I had at night and it was a lot...like I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone because that should be the case. I don’t think people should be burning themselves out like that. However, for me it worked. I would never want to prescribe anyone because I don’t think it’s necessarily healthy, but I guess for me it worked and that’s just how I coped. I don’t think I could have done anything else at the time like if I’d have just got another job. I think the frustrations would have still been there. And again because I was at home finances were kind of easy, and so I was able to save a lot, get all those tattoos, become more myself, which I didn’t think I’d ever be able to do. But then because of the nature of at Impero, I was burnt out, stressed, and I think ultimately I didn’t see myself having a future there and it was sad because everyone there’s lovely like Michael the creative director is such a cool guy. Just wears white Vans, big shaggy hair, would sit on the deck, he’s lovely but I just couldn’t see myself there because I just feel like I was just being kind of just like a workstation and I wasn’t maybe being tapped into as much as maybe they could have?
Then I think I decided to go Freelance, one because I was at home and I thought well I’ve got the biggest safety ever, only paying my mom the rent that she wanted and food and that was kind of it. I had a car and that was kind of it, so my outgoings were like nothing and as I thought well if I’m gonna take the risk I might as well do it while I’m at home. Just the safest possible thing, so just did that but then obviously March 2020 happened and I was supposed to LA with 30 Seconds to Mars. They were going to book me for three months and I was going to be out there for three months doing loads of projects with them. It would have been really cool. Alternate universe I’d be interested to see what that was like, you know? But yeah that didn’t happen and I basically just had to start from scratch and I just contacted people that I already knew I just made making work my only goal while I was at home and sort of fed and had this or sort’ve safety net of not having to stress about insane rent prices that some people still pay for and yeah, that’s kind of been it to now and then I think the past sort of two or three years freelancing, It’s just been a whole whirlwind really but I’ve been freelancing full-time up until last year where I’ve got a part-time role now a couple of days a week at they’re called Never Dull Studio and again, Ben and Alex there, it’s just the three of us. It’s just a nice role to be in, it’s also given me a financial safety net too. But it’s also been very stressful because I have less time so I get very precious about it and I have loads of stresses about paying off tax and everything that comes with it. But yeah as a general outline. If I went too much in there. But yeah, that’s kind of where I’ve been at. So I feel like whilst it is a very typical process, it was sped up by certain factors:
1): The safety net of being at home.
2): I think just my temperament in general, like I want to... If I’m gonna be somewhere I really want to be somewhere.
So I think it was very interesting how that paid out because that doesn’t often pay off. I see so many talented people that maybe don’t have a following necessarily which doesn’t mean that much anyway, but they don’t get seen and don’t get picked u and I think creative people, we struggle to market ourselves a lot and show what we can do. I don’t necessarily like the phrasing of marketing but just showing what we can do. I feel like we don’t really do it too much...
That’s the general kind of gist of where I’m at today. So I still have the part-time role. I freelance most of the other time, I kind of often do six day weeks. But because I kind of stand and try to look after myself better it’s not too bad, but it’s just how I’m coping at the moment because of just how much things cost. But yeah, hopefully that’s like a nice general overview for you!
Yeah, I suppose freelancing... Is there anything about it that you kind of didn’t consider before you began doing it that once you started you were like, this is actually kind of a bigger part of it that I would have thought!
Yeah, there’s probably a couple of those things. I think my own skill and abilities aside. I think those are things that I’ve always known. I think the surprises were mainly just all the adminy kind of side or the consistency I guess of the seasons. I think this only really clicked last year but there’s seasons to industries. December it’s quiet, January It’s kind of quiet but then at the end of January to April it can get really busy because of how the tax year works. Then in Summer there’s loads of festivals and events. People are off and then when their kids are off for the six week holiday over here. Like all these things, I feel like it took a minute for that to click home because for me my kind of lifestyle was very consistent all year round? Like, Christmas really because of how the world works everything’s closed anyway, so that’s definitely a surprise: the kind of distresses you don’t know are gonna come because there’s struggles with whatever you do, but I think the surprising ones are definitely the consistency, trying to find work on a regular basis, I’m still figuring that out right now. It’s particularly now that I feel like I’ve reached out even more recently kind of repositioning myself to be more like a kind of artwork, graphical, icon-based sort of creative. So yeah, definitely the consistency.
I think other surprises are maybe just I think working by yourself. I think that can be a challenge like I noticed when I got this part time roll last year that I’d accrued some really bad habits of just not communicating over Slack or whatever because I’ve got so used to working by myself just in this conservatory at my parents house that I maybe saw it as optional but I think a lot of that was definitely due to just how overbearing my previous role where Slack and notifications were just going off and I just had to block out to be able to do work. Because the PMs at the time were very on you and I feel like that was actually to a detriment of the work. So I think I definitely have the tendency to avoid messages, kind of like Schrödinger’s cat kind of vibes where you’re just like, I don’t wanna look at it. Actually I’ve learned now to kind of open messages, quickly see what they need to do and if I need to reply I’ll do it later or whenever. Not to sort of leave things because inevitably you don’t know if you even gonna be around tomorrow let alone being able to reply to an email so things that definitely come up and I don’t know... It was it surprises or things you didn’t think about right?
Yeah!
I think maybe there’s a switch that happens and I’d say it’s actually quite a nice switch but there’s kind of weirdly less pressure on things and it sounds really weird to say that there’s other stresses, of course that come with being freelance, but I think you kind of learned to view the work as the work and actually that you’re working with people, you’re making something that you don’t necessarily have full control of but the fact that it just gets done and out in the world and received... there’s like a healthy distance when you sort of turn pro if you want to give it a phrase. There’s a switch that happens where you kind of go: I actually care about it more than just doing it on the side because I want to make it the only thing that I do. But then, I think for me that’s helped me make more of my own work. So it’s very symbiotic in its relationship.
So client work. I learned a lot of stuff. I discovered some apps. Like timekeeping was a big one. I use this free app called Clockify and I’ve literally got it running right now because I have a category called ‘being social’... And that’s what this is. Everything’s all blocked down, colour coded, my work is orange, client work is a pink, all these sorts of things. So with client work I kind of learn a lot of things even it could just be not in anything related with design. It could just be like apps you discover or ways to use Google Slides or Keynote or even Figma and things like that. Sometimes client work forces you to kind of learn things which is always nice and I think it’s them that propped up me making more my own work and it’s kind of gone together. So that was actually a surprise too just like how many acts and new softwares and things that can help me and sort of refine me more and like I said that’s a healthy distance because you kind of lose the perfectionism that I think a lot of people early on in their career maybe do where you kind of want everything a certain way and you often don’t maybe release stuff or even finish things whereas I think the biggest thing that I’ve learned really is, and I think this goes out with freelancing, making new work, is just to finish things. You’re better off doing five things, one of them being good, than really doing five versions of one thing. Particularly karmically I even still get it now when I have to do something that’s... maybe a presentation deck whilst I’ve done so many of them that little bit of you comes in of I don’t want to do this, why am I doing this? This is boring! but actually those are the times where you really learn things and whilst it’s never like the best job to just smart up a presentation. Weirdly... kind of doing both, like being creative, coming up with ideas and also doing those monotonous adminy things. I think that’s the side that surprised myself just how well they both worked together because often people are mainly one or the other right? I think it’s very rare you come across someone that kind of enjoys both… because that’s two bits of me to do them. So yeah, a couple of surprises there: software, consistency and the seasons that the industry has and yeah, your own communication style being questioned and how that changes. Especially working mainly remote because that’s what I do. I’ve barely met most of my clients. It’s via Instagram DMS or emails. So yeah if I could summarise it would be kinda those, if that answers your question?
“You’re better off doing five things, one of them being good, than really doing five versions of one thing.”
I was thinking on how you talked about people don’t market themselves enough or whatever the case. In your case. I think it’s really well done. I don’t see many people who have I don’t want to say a sort of what’s here kind of look to their Instagram page. But I don’t know. it’s almost like there’s a brand to stuff that most people don’t tend to have I guess.
Thank you for that. It is weird because I almost don’t notice it anymore. I think I have put a lot of weight and effort in. You know, it can even be simple things like IS MY NAME GONNA BE ALL CAPS ALL OF THE TIME? and I don’t think it’s necessarily perfectionism. I think it used to be but now it’s more like, I don’t know, I’m thinking how I phrase things. So yeah thank you for that. it’s hard to sort of... I don’t really see it because I think It’s becoming natural now because of doing it for so long; even it’s a simple things like always having alt text and always having an image description, or I think I’m very particular in that I always say that the work is being shared on the Instagram, It’s not a post if that makes sense. Those are things that have just taken four or five years to get to and that’s the thing. I think my kind of new thing now is to just refine it. I think I still feel very experimentative and I still don’t feel like I’ve necessarily got my own lane fully yet, but it’s way more to find that it was for years ago and that’s all that’s kind of rewarding about doing kind of work is that over time the clients kind of feel all the same and or they’re similar; and that I’m clearly then attracting certain types of people. I think just yesterday the guitarist from A Day To Remember just followed me. I’m like, oh my God, like what? I think the biggest one that ever happened that was Oli Sykes. Like shitting hell. God I’m like freaking out. I’ve got the screenshot printed out somewhere. But then that’s funny because then that gets on a whole course and I’m very good friends with another Harry who’s the head of designer at Drop Dead, and he’s literally moved where the bakery is, the studio that I’m at or the co-working space. He’s moved down the road from Sheffield, which is crazy.
So it’s funny how you can get put on little paths and I think that’s maybe why I’ve done that. I think it’s honestly like an epicentre and especially digitally you can curate yourself a lot can’t you? And often more people find their identity is more online than in person. Or it’s completely the other way around and I think you can kind of create both. We choose what we wear, if we wear makeup and nails and things, and haircuts and stuff, tattoos and piercings and body augmentations or transitioning it’s like all those things I feel like people have accepted online. Changing your profile picture is accepted online because it’s just part of it whereas if you change your hair or suddenly you want top surgery people kind of lose their shit a bit... and it’s like they feel very much just the same thing. They can have the same weight to someone and the same empowerment. So yeah, thank you for that because I think sometimes I said, I kind of forget that I do it but maybe that is a good thing because it’s all trying to be natural and I’m not trying to maybe copy someone which I think that often happens when you’re in the start. You’re trying to find yourself, and often you just want to internalise someone else’s practice and you only do that by mimicking and I think that’s just a healthy part of becoming yourself. You sort of go: This is me. Try it on. Oh no it’s not but actually it's this! and as long as you’re not just completely plagiarising that’s obviously a clear line. I think it’s a healthy part of finding yourself and It’s why we watch films or we are into certain music that we like, it’s like our own taste and lens kind of gets developed just by watching and consuming things. But you’d probably be able to tell from me that I’m clearly British, I’m clearly in some alternative scene that’s not really quite defined yet. I mean I think that’s kind of the fun of design innit? I can put those in someone’s head without just saying it as text? And so yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, it’s one of those things where I said I think I’ve done it so often now that it becomes a bit natural and I hope that’s the case for a lot of people when they kind of start their journey too because there’s nothing better than sort of still having to not mask anymore.
“We choose what we wear, if we wear makeup and nails and things, and haircuts and stuff, tattoos and piercings and body augmentations, or transitioning. It’s like all those things I feel like people have accepted online.”
Yeah, I guess on the other hand. Do you ever feel like you’re almost pigeonholing yourself by being very stylistic. Is that something you think about?
It’s weird. I haven’t thought about it like myself but it’s come up... like okay, there was a couple of comments last year from people that I’ve worked with and they just sent me some messages from clients that we’ve either worked with or we’re about to and it’s weird. I think because a lot of people think right I either niche out and become this thing or I kind of just be good at everything or I maybe lean into more strategy, whatever like that. I’ve always thought, I always think it more of like a lens, so like if I were to make shoes you would have my lens to it the same way I would do an illustration. You should be able to know that it’s me regardless of the medium but inevitably if you want to be more of like an artist, you inevitably need an art form or a talent, and an idea and a message together. I think most people are in one of the other. So I think my pigeon hole is currently is mainly just purely aesthetical. I think I’ve only just recently got my ideas and message starting to form. I think my current thing is the whole relationship between being digital and physical beings. Like that’s my kind of new thing that I’m very latched onto. I think the contemporary gothic style has kind of always really been there and that’s been the main kind of vessel but I need to now start putting the ideas and messages into it.
But yeah, it has come up where people go: why would I hire Harry? Harry doesn’t really look like... Harry doesn’t really look like they’d do like a dog brand. It’s frustrating because it’s like they’ve already got me on a project for the work and yet then now just seeing what I look like start questioning it? I find that quite sort of discriminatory or prejudiced a little bit and that’s on them. I’d rather be like this and work for Oli Sykes and the people I have worked with. There’s a project that I’m just finishing up now with Tim from Polyphia, all these sort of things, and I’m like, if I wasn’t really embracing who I am and trying to take care of that I wouldn’t be with these people that clearly on the same wavelength. Do you know what I mean? So it’s a tough one because basically it’s like I’ve said something similar before like I think I’ve sent this as a message to someone...but I think it’s like I’d rather be kind of at least not hated, that’s a strong word. But I’d rather be critiqued for trying to be me. Then you just gonna get critique and picked on anyway, at least you can kind of stand behind your actions when you’ve chosen it, and I think that says more about the other people than me. Obviously if I’m doing something that’s offensive. That’s a whole another reason, but I don’t think I’ve got into that realm yet and maybe that’s a realm that I might have to go in, to be a bit more polarising and be a bit more myself because it’s funny you say the pigeon holing, I feel like I’m still playing it safe to a degree and it’s scary to go further but also I think I’m clearly seeing signs that actually it’s probably worth not like niching out but becoming more me, because there’s only gonna be one of me ever, so you might as well be that one. Do you know what I mean? I just mean there’s literally only going to be one version of you so might as well become it or unearth it maybe is a better way of seeing it. But yeah that has come up, but then I think because clearly I’m quite masculine presenting and even though I’m sort of mainly white British, but then I’ve got Indian backgrounds like my nans from Mumbai and stuff. So all these types of things. There’s layers of privilege that I think everyone has. I’ve got maybe a couple more than most people. Being from the UK’s another one...
All these sorts of things, and I think, I often wonder if some of those weren’t present would I still be in this spot? Obviously, I still would have been me because those are part of me but it does make you kind of see that well actually if someone like me is struggling or is being typecast or has got those sort of things coming. Anyone that has any less privilege than me is probably going through even worse. So I think that’s definitely part of what the world that we’re currently in is, that even if someone like me is still facing those types of things like anyone that has less privilege of me is gonna have a way harder time, and they do. I think it’s not something that I’ve made a point of because I think it just comes naturally to me but like someone said that my client list is ridiculously diverse? I barely work with the same like— it’s not even CIS white men. It’s almost just like whatever that cluster of people are. I think I got it up and there’s no consistency here. It’s not like you’re working with just Google, Google, Google, or something. It’s literally just loads of small independent people and even the people that I follow and talk to on a daily basis but I think that’s just been part of always who I am.
“If someone like me is struggling or is being typecast or has got those sort of things coming. Anyone that has any less privilege than me is probably going through even worse.”
My dad’s always said that I’ve always been a champion of underdogs or the unspoken. I think that’s always been the case, like I’ll use all of my power if it means someone else gets a little bit of it. But yeah, it’s come up. I feel like it’s been recent, but I think it’s only going to come up more the more I dial into myself because knowing myself I don’t think I am... typical. I don’t go out drinking every weekend or like football [wheyyy!]. It was me when I was nine, but that’s not me now. It does come up but like I said, it’s tough because I think the reward of maybe being more me trumps it any day. I don’t think I’ve been like hate crimed to any degree yet. I feel nervous going out sometimes but apart from that I think I’ve been very lucky that a lot of those things haven’t come up to that degree yet, but you never know. It could happen, do you know what I mean? So it’s just one of those things where I think because I don’t fit into whatever the bulk of the current world is. It’s going to come up because I’m kind of against it or trying to change it.
In regards to finding work and choosing projects in relation to your morals do you think that’s like a privilege to be able to say I don’t believe in this so I’m not gonna do it?
Yeah, and it’s a tough one. I think it’s a very nuanced situation because I think obviously I feel like I’m still at the point where I don’t have too much say, I have enough say, but I’ve worked with there’s something like a couple of jobs with the BBC, Colgate, Palmolive and like they sort of don’t really match up with me ethically however at the time because it was only my second year of doing stuff. I just needed work. Any work that came in. I just kind of needed and had to do to pay for things, and that’s only gotten worse since moving out. Virtually £1500 leaves my bank account in three days and suddenly I’m in like overdraft and I’m like, fuck. So the whole month I’m in overdraft. Great. But literally anything that I earn just goes straight into my car, debts and tax, and things like that. So I think it’s frustrating because I think yeah to a degree it is a privilege to be able to turn around and not do particular work, but then at the same time everyone has their own limits or sort of ethics and morality. I think there’s a lot of people that I follow that are fellow creatives and they have huge platforms and they’ll say certain things and they’ll feel self-titled as anarchists and things like that. But yeah, I also know they work for huge music groups which to me kind of goes against what, you know, clearly their values. But like I said, sometimes people just need to do work and also get paid for it.
So I think to a degree it is, however, I think everyone has their own limit, I’m obviously not gonna work with anyone that is pro Israel, whatever, never have done. So it’s just one of those things where it’s very personal because like I said, sometimes you don’t know what people’s own limits are, I think maybe a lot of people who look at my online presence and go: oh! Harry’s got all sorted out. Yeah, they’re not kind of struggling for money or anything. Where the reality is I’m in the same boat as everyone else. I’ve just had the privilege of maybe figuring myself out a little bit earlier than I thought. And I think yeah, people just have their own limits to what they can and can’t do whether that’s time or finances. That’s often the two things that bind a lot of people. But yeah, so yeah in short... I think it is but there’s like an *asterisk* to it.
“I think there’s a lot of people that I follow that are fellow creatives and they have huge platforms and they’ll say certain things and they’ll feel self-titled as anarchists and things like that. But yeah, I also know they work for huge music groups which to me kind of goes against their values.”
Yeah, I guess an aspect of when you’re at a place that you’re I suppose comfortably existing then you can kind of pay it forward I suppose, I don’t know that makes sense?
Yeah, no. I know what you mean. Almost like employed and it’s even if you work at a company you don’t agree with, at least you can have that financial security which I think is the hardest thing as a creative person. Financial Security is currently quite rare and I’m hoping to give people tools or at least share my experience that you can do it because even I’m not. I think I used to have this lens that I’ve got all figured out, but got it figured out basically meant I was at home and wasn’t really living in the real world. And again, that’s not necessarily a problem. But I think at the time I didn’t have the self-awareness that shit, I’m still at home. I’m not really struggling money wise because I’d been living with parents still, whereas when that switch happened two years ago. I think it was like a... okay, whilst I’ve hoped and survived and luckily I’ve been okay to a degree for the past two years, I’ve got the part-time role because of it. You have to adapt and change to things that mean you just exist and unfortunately just existing today means you need to earn a certain amount and eat and like tattoos and stuff come later... so yeah, it’s definitely that kind of space unfortunately.
Yeah, I was wanting to ask you about your A Contract for All Creatives document, at what point did you feel you could be an authority to speak about contracts in general? Was it a point of I’ve got this much experience so I can talk about it. Or...?
I guess I still would say today that I don’t think I have an authority over it. One because I even have to put a disclaimer on it’s saying I’m not a legal professional so like this is all just experience sharing and I think I’m always quite objective with stuff like that because I think it’s important to kind of go like I haven’t got this figured out. However, I have actually figured these things out. I don’t think I figured out how to run a successful business, but I think I have maybe figured out a process where to be the most transparent you possibly can be and just to alleviate for me a lot of struggles that are just kind of unnecessary when working with people or clients. I hate the whole kind of design means of email tennis and client feedback. I’ve always not liked that, whilst it can be a joke, but to me it’s like we shouldn’t be joking about things. You should kind of sort things out so that it’s better. So I think that document came out of a lot of frustration, so in terms of the provenance of it like to Dan Barkle, my good friend, he sent me his one. My first version was based off that then through just using it and getting clients and projects it just kept tweaking and changing. I think technically before even our shared that we were on version 7.2 or something like that, and that the points mean that it’s the seventh version that I’ve added a bit of text. It was just so many and one day I think I saw how so many people maybe don’t realise maybe just a simple structure of having a deposit and invoicing before you send work. Just simply just doing that and can help, and that’s come in handy so many times where projects have been late or whatever and some people don’t know you can even do that or charging interest on their invoices and you can give them the UK at the bank of England’s minimum rate, but you can set your own rate like the second someones signs it they kind of know not to do it. So I think I did that not thinking I was necessarily an authority but maybe that I wish I had this when I was 17 kind of vibe. I wish I knew this when I was 17 so that hopefully I think when I looked at the stats the other day, so on Twitter it got about I don’t know how analytics work but it’s got 120,000 Impressions, but I think the people actually clicking on it. I think it’s roughly under 2,000 or something. And then I can actually see the link clicks and stuff. So I guess in total a good couple thousand people have at least viewed this document and all my intention was, it was to basically go like... here’s what I’ve worked out, use it because you might work out more things than me because I think if anything, I’m not the authority on it, I’m just sharing what I’ve worked out. If you’re then not starting from zero, you’re already gonna solve more things than me. It was almost like a pay it on kind of thing.
I think I remember making it, because I think that I did the first one a couple years ago, but the second one it was four hours before I had to basically go... I was on a camping trip where I didn’t have internet for five days actually four hours before I went I was like. I need to share this again or need to make a new version because it’s been a minute and I’ve learned so much since and I’m literally posting it as I’m like getting in the car to drive and then not having internet for five days. I think it was that kind of vibe where it’s almost like I want anyone to maybe look at that and go, right? If that’s your starting ground, then holy shit, what are you gonna do in three years time? kind of thing. It’s been nice. I get messages about it all the time. I always try and screenshot them. I’ve built a bank with messages that people have sent just as a reminder of like, that can be the impact you have when you do things like that. So I think it’s always nice to remind myself that you individually can have an impact, but I think together it’s even better. But yeah, if anything not an authority, it was almost like you do with this what you can because like I said, I wish I had that when I was 17, I wish someone made that when I was starting because if I transported myself five years into the future and I started off with that. You’re probably gonna be in a better place already.
I feel like I’m very for the people kind of vibe, maybe that’s where the red comes from but I’ve always been kind of like I said just sort of I wish someone I would have wanted that when I was starting out. So why shouldn’t I make it kind of thing? But yeah, hopefully answers that one.
Yeah, so reading through it. I think one of my anxieties is as someone who has literally a zero client work that’s comes to fruition. I’ve spoken to a few people, but it’s never really gone anywhere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I guess the idea of throwing this giant document at them terrifies me if I’m like. Here’s my terms! They’re gonna go, you have no client work. You have no formal experience. I could get someone on Upwork or Fiverr to do this, why should I bother... I’m not gonna pay a deposit to this person.
That voice is definitely in there.
Do you think it’s actually feasible if someone like me for instance goes and hands this big document at someone like that?
Yeah, okay. I know what you mean. It’s hard because I think with how sort of people and clients work like it’s sort’ve I don’t know, like I saw your Hydra mug, so if you want to buy something like that, you’ve probably seen it before you buy it, right, but already gone ugh you see you’ve seen it at Forbidden Planet or something and that’s kind of peaked your interest. You might not have bought it straight away. But then maybe when you get paid at the end of the month whatever it is, you’re like awh, gonna get that...ten quid, sick. That’s kind of maybe how it works I think even more so with hiring a creative person I think. The reason people go on Fiverr is because there’s previous work already on there. And I think that’s why when I would say to people is it’s like you should always do work on your terms whether that’s being paid or not. As long as it’s on your terms and you’re comfortable doing it. And you know you’re not being exploited, any kind of work is work. Because if you suddenly, I think it’s very hard to ask someone you’re right, like give someone a huge document like that, and maybe you’ve not even got a portfolio or something that you made. That might be a tall ask for some people, maybe not everyone. That could deter people but at the same time I think having structure and paperwork like that because it isn’t as an accepted thing for creative people. I think it’s going to jar people anyway, and if anything not having it you’re less protected.
Even just simple things of timings. I never used to have timings. When I was like, but if that overruns I can’t invoice them and all these sort of things. I think it’s kinda more for your own benefit necessarily than the client’s but in terms of the benefits. Its an actual relationship and the reason I say it’s a benefit to you is that it gets rid of people that want to take advantage of you, and I think that’s kind of part of reason why maybe encourage people to have it to whatever degree that is, even if it’s a simple commission thing where you go, right, I don’t know a pet illustration is 200 quid. This is the style, here’s some previous ones I’ve got, but if you don’t have the previous ones, they’re not going to know why they would hire you. I think as long as you can maybe build up that confidence and trust me the self-doubt will always be there. You just have to maybe build more work and therefore confidence and experience from however means that you can that’s on your terms like I said, because then people will look at that and go: okay, they’re kind of legit then okay, I’m gonna get artwork on this day, awh okay and then this happens... It doesn’t have to be as extensive as mine. I think the one I’ve shared is a lot in terms of paperwork but in terms of what it’s saying, it’s not really saying too much. I think it’s definitely coming handy lot and it’s definitely set the tone of the type of people that I get to work with and yeah.
There is a lot of predatory practices especially in the music industry and design overlap where these big companies because they know you’re a fan they’ll just abuse you and basically pray on your inexperience. And I guess all that document was ever trying to do is maybe give a little bit of my experience to you so that from the get-go you kind of have at least 10% rather than zero and if that gives you a bit more confidence to get work, It’s kind of worked. Even if it’s one project or a hundred and so yeah, I think it would be a tall ask for someone. I think getting work and having work to be able to show I think is equally as important because that’s why people come to you and maybe trying to use whatever avenues you can so that it just gets your work under the right people, because you don’t have to be everywhere. You just need to be in front of people you think will actually hire you, want to work with you. Because I think otherwise you can spend your time endlessly sharing work and it may be not getting anywhere or the level of commitment you’ve got to do nowadays to be able to build an audience, that type of thing. So yeah, I would agree with you, I think it would be a tall ask, especially if it’s the document just as it is, but like I said, even if you just took the timings of it or the whole invoice structure or payment structure where you get paid a bit before you start. I think that alone, just making your own one and sort of just even if you use bits of it it’s better than maybe nothing and then not getting any work at all. But yeah, because I… Forgive me. I haven’t looked at any of your work or anything yet. So if you have a site or something, I’m helping out one of my friends. We did a portfolio review a couple of weeks ago and that was really nice. It was free, just three of us and it was just this nice mutual thing. I’m thinking of doing things like that with people just because, again, I don’t think I have any authority but more I often think about how my mum would use the website or something. Like if my mom can’t use it. Then it’s shit. She’s my parameter for usability.
“I often think about how my mum would use the website or something. Like, if my mom can’t use it. Then it’s shit. She’s my parameter for usability.”
I think it would be a bit of an ask if it was to that degree. But maybe it’s more about having more of your work present and seeing and then just not having the whole document but maybe applying some things and just testing seeing how it goes. If you get work from it, you can then do more and tweak it. That’s essentially how the document started. It was way less than that, and then suddenly things like late fees and stuff had to be in there because people ghosted me, people paying me three months late for stuff like I couldn’t cope so, yeah.
So it’s kind of in the same sort of vein, but I guess for an anecdote some guy came into our uni once to do a talk. A cool guy with a lot of nice work, but then he pulls up a slide basically about how cool unpaid internships are and to always be the first person in and always pour the tea, be the last one to leave, and this is how I got my foot in the door... and I feel like I seem to see that trend a lot with the people who visit at the university and it’s never really... My experience was really, I guess abusive in a way. It’s generally, you do it as well because it worked for me, but just never from an angle of... this was actually maybe kind of an unhealthy relationship and way of life I was in!
Yeah, I guess it’s like a self-awareness that maybe doesn’t work for everyone. I think it’s a privilege to work for free. And this is the thing. It’s not like a one size fits all. I think I’ve kept repeating like it’s got to be on your terms. So if you can do a small thing for free and you know that maybe that’s worth the payoff. You need to have that check in with yourself to do it. It doesn’t mean it’s a rule for everyone but I think unfortunately the design and creative industry specifically it relies upon people’s inexperience and it takes advantage of you, I think it’s very predatory, I think the landscape is very hostile even if you’ve had some levels of privilege that I’ve had and people still want to take the piss out me... so fucking hell like that’s gonna basically mean that most people are gonna get the piss taken out them then, and it’s definitely one of those worlds and I think anyone that preaches that either has to be very aware of who they’re talking to because if that rubs off on someone that can’t afford to work free, but then they feel like they have to that. I don’t think that’s a nice gate way for entry because I think it is isn’t it? Because people want experience then out of the cost and work is work at the end of the day, so like no one should be uncompensated if they’ve done work regardless of their skill set or level and that’s why we have apprenticeships, that’s why we have certain wage ranges, that’s why we have have titles to differentiate people’s sort of skills and expertise they exist for that reason. And so yeah to come in but preach that doing unpaid labour is something that’s to be treasured. It’s like, you either don’t know the privilege that you’ve had to be able to do that or you yourself are part of the predatory system, or both, could be both! And yeah, I’ve always been against it because I think it really is a gateway. There is so many people where they work at these huge design agencies and a lot of them aren’t from the UK. They’ll literally come from Australia or completely other sides of the world to come because they know these London agencies do internships and the second that’s on their CV they’ll get hired places, and it unfortunately does work and that’s the shit thing. It actually does work, and I think that’s the shit thing about it. Like it shouldn’t work and it should be something that’s optional not guaranteed. But like I said, I say it works, but it might not even... you could spend all this time and money being here and you don’t get hired, do you know what I mean?
I’ve always been against it because I don’t know just one of those, again. It’s kind of one of the sort of worker kind of parts of me where it’s just that’s someone being taken advantage of to whatever degree that is and yeah, I just think it’s not something to preach, and if you are, there has to be huge caveats, like how I’m talking to you right now. Do it on your own terms if you are going to do it. I’ve done it recently where it wasn’t necessarily for free, but it was more of an exchange of Labour. I’ve designed someone’s site on Squarespace and they’re a project manager and it was the other way around. So I did it’s a favour to them because they got me a lot of work. I was like, I’m just gonna quickly do your site. I did the co-working space site that I use here. That was a time where I didn’t have much work on, and we just exchange it, and Paul sort of knew what my daily rate was and just sort of subbed that into what I pay to rent here. So as I mean once you checked in that it’s on your terms, I think it can be a good thing. However by default it’s not and by default, I mean companies taking advantage of people for free and often even still using the work as well. That’s even the worst bit...there’s a few big design agencies that there’s a lot of gossip around in the industry that it’s well known that they just rinse and repeat interns they get to do really cool work because it’s them, make them work long hours, don’t subsidise any sort of lunches, or pay, or commute, and they don’t hire them at the end of their fixed term contract or whatever it is and yeah, it’s not good.
Yeah, okay. I suppose. Kind of going back to things from ages ago, but the image descriptions on your Instagram page. I don’t see anyone doing accessibility like image descriptions pretty much ever.
Really? God, that’s bad.
How did that it come to being something you think about doing, I guess?
Yeah, good question. Yeah again, it’s one of those things where when I initially did it. I was like ‘It’s a bit... Yeah, it’s a bit much to do.’ because I’m not gonna take away the kind of the weight of doing it because it’s on my own description. I don’t use AI or anything. I’ve always been quite objective and I can describe artworks very well. That was part of the thing I was good with at like school work, like my personal study I somehow analysed. I somehow coupled together Gerald Lang, Andy Warhol, and Nick Hamilton all in one piece all about consumers and the images there and all the sort of thing. It’s like speaking about artworks always just came naturally to me like whatever undiagnosed spectrum thing I’ve got. I’ve only just thought even documenting the things that I might think I’ve got or any sort of instances. I’ve got a Google doc running and frequently people say I’m like Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory, hopefully the nice bits of things. He can be an asshole. But yeah, I think it just came from genuinely wanting people to be able to experience my work whether they need that assistance or not. And two, I think it is quite natural if you are already doing the caption. Just adding that it’s really not... because you’re right I do it in the captions on Instagram. But even on the actual image description part of the image as well, like the one thing I haven’t done is on my site and yet I am planning to sort of go through and do it. Obviously it’s a big task to do on every image, but I think it’s something that I will do eventually, but currently I might even take my site off Squarespace and put it on Framer because I’ve seen people build some nice sites on there. And yeah, it’s just becoming part of it, the same way I’ve tweaked how I talk about work. Now I’ve got this kind of system down where it’s almost a little bit of prose or a bit of poem with it. Then it’s the artwork title, then it’s citing any assets or sources that I’ve used and it just became part of that formula, and the crediting bit came from my friend Caroline. I remember she just should always tell and she said to me it came from frustration because people go: what font is this? and yeah, it’s classic init? And I was kind’ve like, ah that’s kinda good. Again it’s been part of maybe my strategy or loose strategy to kind of go... I’ve not made this image, the photograph isn’t mine. But seeing that my skills rely maybe more in the manipulation of it. That’s what I do, I’m not a photographer. I don’t create images or 3D render stuff. I think there’s something maybe nice in using assets and incorporating that along with the image description. I don’t know when it just feels right.
But like I said, it’s mainly just to actually get as much people seeing the work as possible because I think it’s clearly a feature so use it right? And like I said it becomes hard at first because it’s like a habit but now... If I don’t do it, it’s weird. Because I’m sort of two or three years into always having an image description now and like I said, I think anything to do with accessibility and stuff. I think it’s important because you have no idea who could be seeing these things. And I think the worst thing in the world is that a lot of people don’t maybe have the opportunities that I’ve maybe had and they don’t get to become like who they could be or who they maybe really are underneath trying to make rent every month. So it touches all of those things to me. And like I said, the accessibility bits are definitely the main bit but yeah, it’s also quite industrial too, like it, I think if you’re able to break down what a work is. I think it comes with the transparency thing and often people have said I talk about work in quite a unique way? Like how I talk is quite, I don’t know if it’s objective, but very short objective sentences. Juxtaposing words and things like that. It’s just how I talk, and it just becomes part of that too. And being able to kind of go this is literally an outlined image of a coffee with seven Xs on it. there’s something quite nice in just telling it what it is as well? Not trying to fluff it up, literally going: a portrait image of a half-toned person with seven tears. Like it almost feels very akin to a placard on a piece of artwork? I think that’s how I’ve always seen the caption.
Ohhh, yeah.
That’s why I put the medium, the date, any assets, sources. I’ve always seen specifically captions in sharing work because it’s an image always with a caption or a text. Tumblr’s the same, Twitter’s the same, Dribble’s the same, Instagram’s the same. I’ve always seen it that way where the image bit. I’ve had the thought about switching it up. So only having the description as the image and then I just link it to my portfolio site and thought about it’d be interesting if someone committed to that, and just text as Instagram and people having to almost not use Instagram to see the work that would be quite funny but yeah, that’s literally my whole process about work is that they sit kind with something, it has a bit context, all these sorts of things. Beyond just the media accessibility bit.
I guess It just came to my mind. It’s almost these good little habits that aren’t a lot of effort that everyone can visibly do it’s sort of just litter picking almost, everyone does a little bit and quantifiably if everyone did it it could maybe be quite impactful.
Well yeah, exactly, the same with the contract thing. For me that’s my way of trying to change the industry. If I can just teach even a hundred people even though I know it’s more than that. If I can just show a handful of people or thousands of people that just having this simple structure can maybe make their own practice better, that’s kind of worth sharing. It’s definitely worth sticking to, and that’s definitely been part of a lot of why I do certain things. So I think I realised maybe last year that you know, some designers or artists, they’ll have an audience where it’s I don’t know metalheads from the 80s or something or... I think, and this is where maybe my early kind of days were trying to be almost a design content creator type thing, trying to be an authority voice. I think I dropped that fairly recently because I think I realised that I’m not actually an expert. I’m just one of everyone. I’m still a creative person myself. My audience is just other creative people and music, whether that be musicians, whatever the medium, that’s the kind of people I keep attracting because it’s almost like, you know I’m one of you. It’s like spidey-sense. It’s like oh, we both know! It’s like, it could be an Autism-sense. I don’t know. But it’s something like that which you kind of know your people. I mean and yeah, it definitely sort of touches on that too. Because yeah, I think I just believe in using whatever tools or privileges you do have to the max because if you’ve got it, use it, there’s people that don’t [have them] kind of thing. And that’s always been kind of a part of me ever since I was little so... luckily my parents have always been able to sort of get me toys or whatever. I’ve always felt very lucky. You know, fuck, I loved Lego Bionicles. They were the shit.
“You know I’m one of you. It’s like Spidey-sense. It’s like oh, we both know! It’s like, it could be an Autism-sense. I don’t know.”
Aww, Yeah. No I did too...
Yeah, especially Vakama and the original Toa.
I watched all of the movies like non-stop, I was addicted.
Awh, the movies were sick, yeah! Yeah...yeah, The Mask of Light, ugh, and yeah luckily I’ve always had at least material objects and that’s definitely touched me realising that as an only child often my avenue for connections was what I had. So like whether it’s how I looked or if I had a spare pencil or something that’s often been my main connection forming thing and I think it can be toxic sometimes but in general that’s always why... It’s like the classic look after yourself before other people kind of thing and it’s like, oh, I always make sure I’m fed and got an extra pen and pencil, whatever, and software, and it just means that someone else can maybe do that too if I’ve kind of sorted mine out and got it to the degree where I’m not worrying too. That’s roughly where the mindset is.
Yeah, cool, I did not expect Bionicle to come into this!
I had a look at the time and I nearly started talking about Yu-Gi-Oh, and I was like, woah, woah!
I had something in my mind...
What kind of? What are you trying to think of and get out of this, what’s the kind of...Is it more like an overall Insight, like you’re trying to sort of pick up on things or..? I’m just trying to prompt you a bit!
I’m speaking to a lot of different freelancers from different places about contentment. I suppose it began as what do you sort of think...Is dreaming big kind of a feasible sort of thing to do? Or we spoke a lot about privilege. If it’s even a privilege to think about I don’t know aspiration and stuff like that or if it’s just kind of bullshit I suppose?
Ah okay, but that’s a good thing. Yeah, I’ve definitely naturally just talked about that a lot. Because I think it’s something that maybe people don’t maybe acknowledge or talk about. I think a lot of people that I know on Twitter, is kind of a thing recently where people start to realise a lot of musicians are, like yeah, they call them nepo babies where it’s like, they’ve had trust funds and they’ve been able to do these things for free and whatever. And I think it’s something very important to talk about and that’s why I always say, I always fully disclose that I started my career at home. It was kind of a clever move, try and do that while you can because it’s like a safety net if your home life is all good just use it. And so I always say my family we never were starving or anything and weren’t ridiculously well off. But I’d say we were maybe like lower middle class maybe at a stretch or the upper working class if you still believe in that sort of system kind of thing? I’ve always had clothes, and food, and with that I think it is important to know that when you don’t have those limitations you can think about things. You’re not time or resource poor. You can craft who you want to be. But if you’re just trying to eat and you’re just trying to survive and you don’t have time to do things because you’re always working and exhausted from working a shit job. You don’t get to be able to craft yourself or even think about what you want to do, and as someone that’s experienced that fresh since being completely on my own and financing everything it can be like a struggle even if you had the upbringing that I had. So I think it’s important to talk about 100% because I think it’s why I bring it up a lot and that’s why I’m always very open that I had a very stable family life where I was able to save up and pay for the print things and the handout that I did have is that I got bought my first Mac as a huge end of year present after I my old machine literally burnt out from using Photoshop for too long. So like if I’m gonna be full disclosure. Like that’s it. The rest genuinely has been on me, but to be on me those things obviously came before and even if I had a PC still I feel like it wouldn’t have changed much seriously. I think it’s just one of those things where obviously it was nice to get that almost like a gift. But even though I still paid for most of it anyway. it was still like a gift I mean, so if I was on PC or not maybe it wouldn’t have changed much, probably still would’ve made the same work.
“If you’re just trying to eat and you’re just trying to survive and you don’t have time to do things because you’re always working and exhausted from working a shit job.
You don’t get to be able to craft yourself or even think about what you want to do.”
It’s important not to just maybe discredit yourself because I think that can also come into it where people just make you feel guilty... whether it’s envy or something just, they’ll kind of diminish your hard work because you had certain gaps but I always say to everyone privilege is a spectrum, you don’t have it or not. It’s like what ones do you have? Because some mean more in the current world and some don’t, and I think yeah being in the UK and English speaking and at least White, do you know what I mean? All these sorts of things and that’s not even getting into cis-gender and everything whatever the excuse that the current world has. Yeah I think it’s important to acknowledge because there’s a reason why it’s fucking boring that most big designers are cis white men. You’re just like, ugh fuck, right... I’m only a couple of degrees out, I’m not too far removed from them. So yeah, I think it is important. whatever I think the topic you’ve chosen. I think if you have the right info and what you’re doing, I think it is good getting different aspects of it because I think that a huge bit of that’s not talked about nearly to the degree that it should be. Yet, we have all these conversations about, and this is the thing. It’s like for me, it can be very totalistic as well. So I understand why we have International women’s day, Black History Month and everything. However, I can’t help but shrug the fact that the second you make something not normal, the second you label something not normal, subconsciously people go that’s not normal.
Football is a very good one. If I just say football most, I’d say 99% of people in the world will picture like a man or a Mexican person kicking the ball around? The fact that you have to say women’s football is the problem. For me It’s just things like that. That’s why language is important, that’s why how you talk about things is important. And so yeah if that helps a bit, but yeah, that’s often why I touch up on these things is because I don’t think they’re maybe talked about as much as they should be. So yeah if this is what you’re after I think it can be a very good sort of document because I think like I said it’s one of those things where it should be talked about more. I think even recently people realise that Skrillex and anyways, I’ve forgotten what his name is but again, nepo baby kind of vibe where it’s just like yeah, and it’s like, I still fucking love making fun of them and shit but it kind of taints it because you go and I was having loads of convos with uhm, Jack from Album Art Archive in his Discord server.
Yeah, I love him.
Yeah, I mean Jack’s lovely…
Because yeah, because I’m from Essex and Southend so for me, especially in UK, anyone above North to me, I’ve always loved the North and Scottish people, always gotten along because there’s less bullshit and less sort of like Toryism even though I’m quite well spoken for where I come from but I don’t know I’ve always got along. So Jack’s one of those people, we’ll talk about that in his Discord and I was literally just like even people like David Rudnick, he’s a very educated man. He went to Yale. He’s a very educated man, so it’s no wonder he can think and do the design work that he does because of that level of education and it’s very important that you and me both know what the government’s doing to art funding in the UK stuff. It’s because if you get rid of people’s ability to express themselves and think articulately they’ll just follow whatever you tell them to do which is what happens, like, this is why racism is kind of seeped into the working class. It shouldn’t be in the working class. It’s come from top down, but unfortunately that’s what happens when you get manipulated and media propaganda all these types of things. If you have media literacy or even art and culture literacy, it’s very important because you can kind of go, aw that’s bullshit, you know? You have history and education on your side and that’s why it is important.
Again, I think the biggest takeaway I think maybe is the sharing of experience is going to be always the best form of education, not just learning about a topic. Sharing experiences is still one of the most basic but tried and tested human ways of transferring information, like spoken word and everything. It’s still the most efficient form and the more we do that better because it can be quite lacking.
Yeah, I think while I appreciate what I’m able to do I guess, I’m on my third year of a university course in Brighton doing Graphic Design, while I appreciate it in some ways, it doesn’t necessarily feel like I’m being prepared for the /job/. I’m being taught to think about design thinking and read a lot of research and whatever the case is but it feels like there’s a lack of transparency, an absence of how do I actually be a designer? In the economy, I don’t know, in life with no safety net.
Yeah, exactly. I think that’s such an important thing because I always say like it is, with whatever safety nets that you do have and another thing it’s hard to maybe realise the ones you do have; Because I kick myself now, I always look at myself and like shit, I was at home, I could have saved so much more, I could have done all these sort of things. But at the time I forgot I was in the job that I hate it and I spent any money that I did have on just materialistic things like clothes and shit as an escape and like that in itself is a struggle. Struggles aren’t necessarily completely comparable. But at the same time some people clearly have it better often than others.
I think you’re right, I think schools and education systems are very much geared towards making you a worker and not necessarily a self-sufficient person and that gets tied into what you’re taught. The fact that finance and proper economy courses are reserved for private schools is a huge alarm bell, and the fact that only now Martin Lewis from Money Savings Expert has made his own one and is trying to get that into the system, all these things are very purposeful. These systems are designed to prop up who’s already propped up, and that’s the world we live in and whatever kind of privilege you do have. It’s important to kind of go, okay well at least I’ve got this or at least I’m eating, because it can very quickly disappear. Like you said, you can kind of get, am I even gonna be equipped to deal with these things? And yes, I think schools very much for me were always like you’re right, it kind of teaches just theory but experience, like I said, is still the biggest teacher. I think that’s why I feel very lucky that I was able to get an apprenticeship and get taken on because I think had I gone another path I don’t think I’d be here so quickly or if at all. I think if I was going to do the same thing it probably would have taken another five years. One, because of the debt, and two, then needing to work and even being a postgraduate... what does that mean in today’s world? Because from my experience people have looked more upon me as a person necessarily than the qualification now, whereas there’s still some avenues that still value it. So it’s very mixed isn’t it? Like I said, it can be a very hostile environment especially when you’re starting out too.
“-even being a postgraduate...what does that mean in today’s world? Because from my experience people have looked more upon me as a person necessarily than the qualification now, whereas there’s still some avenues that still value it.”
To finish off... What do you think is the most valuable actionable thing that pretty much everyone can just do. Do you think it’s just about being transparent about how things are for you?
I think free or easy to do is into help your career or something or what’s the kind of motive to sort of do this thing? I would say the thing that I’ve maybe learned is that to maybe just think about why you’re doing something. I know it sounds basic but there’s so many things that put out into the world where I’m just like, I just kind of did that maybe just for the sake of it? And it might have worked things out at the time or whatever, but I think now I’m very much intentional. That’s why there’s a lot of text to do with when I share work now it’s because there’s a lot more meaning in things that I create now, but then at the same time I think the one that changed me the most. of the fact that because what was the question was it what would you say is something that would help do you say?
Yeah.
I think it’s more just like you only really find yourself by just doing things. Maybe there’s a couple of bits of nuggets here, but I think we get so wrapped up in thinking about like other thinking and just not doing things that we often forget that literally a 20 minute sketch could be like a life changing avenue. I think we underestimate the action and maybe put creating on a pedestal. And so we never do it. I want that clear day when nothing happens, I get eight hours to myself. That day doesn’t exist. So whatever your day looks like you have to know yourself that it’s kind of on you to carve it out because like I say, the world’s very hostile to creativity especially because it just wants products, just wants churning out content, It wants meaningless things to take money out, right? So if you want to do anything that’s above that, which I think most people really do. I think it’s important to just evaluate and go: right If I work for 12 hours today I’m probably not going to want to paint after it. Maybe painting before might be a bit of a stretch because I’ve gotta get the train...but find out whatever your routine is and what will work for you because what works for me isn’t gonna work for you, but I can only share it and hope that you pick up things and I think that’s in there to be the most important thing when people share their experiences because you can’t tank that and people can maybe lie or whatever but in terms of true experience if that’s shared that’s still very much the most powerful thing you can really do and especially in an age of misinformation and AI generated shit, that’s gonna get very harder. People aren’t going, people aren’t going to trust images and video now, that’s a scary world to be in, and so I think the only thing that you can rely on is literally giving that time for yourself. You’ll never feel shit. You will never make artwork or design and go I felt shit for doing that. You will always go I’m glad I did it, and that’s the thing, the world will convince you to not do it. It will say you don’t have enough time and whilst it’s true that everyone has 24 hours. It’s not true that everyone has the same lifestyle. And so whatever your lifestyle is, working out how you can maybe do what you want, and it has a sacrifice, whether that’s being lonely, not going to some parties, or getting up a bit earlier, maybe have a slightly weird sleep schedule too like your roommates or whatever it comes it will come at some kind of cost. But you just have to know that it’s worth it.
“You will never make artwork or design and go I felt shit for doing that. You will always go: I’m glad I did it.”
But if anything it would just be that it would be like... just get rid of that pedestal to creating. Because I think that’s probably one of the biggest hurdles for most people, I still get it today. It still comes up, it’s not as often, but it still comes up where I go ugh, that’s gonna take ages... and then when I sit down it’s literally been 25 minutes and it’s done and you’d have sometimes no idea what that 20 minute sketch could do. Anything that you can do that breaks down that pedestal of creating, that breaks down the kind of process that works for you. As long as it works, who gives a shit what it is? It could sound crazy, I would never encourage anyone to rely on a substance but if you literally need a certain incense smell to get started over time you might not even need the incense smell, but that comes over time.
I’ve got it down to a point now where I just literally need this Mac that I’ve got and I can kind of work from anywhere. I think I’ve worked on the bonnet of my car when it’s charging and worked literally on the side of the road like whatever works for me. I’ve somehow, as someone that relies so much on material things in physical objects to activate me. I’ve done the work on myself to be able to internalise that and go: right, whilst myself here is the best ever. I can still do what I need to do on the train, or something like that. So whatever works for you, but it just takes time to figure out but it is amazing when you figure it out because you can go okay, I can do this now consistently and I think it’s just all about like I said, whatever works for you and consistently enough so that over time you either have a body of work that you can look back on and go oh in this month like shit I’ve done at least 15 paintings or something whereas previously wouldn’t have, and I think if we can help create people get rid of that mindset of the ideal nature of creating. That will just cure most people’s avenue creating and suddenly you have way more people that are kind of creating what they want to do.
Because it really is a pedestal isn’t it? How many times did you probably say to yourself aw, I don’t have this pen... like an hour’s long time, an hour’s a lunch break. Again it’s all about energy, knowing yourself when you do that. I know for me I try and do things first thing in the morning because I know myself, the second I have to start emailing people or get into things like I get distracted and worn down. My energy is way less in the evening. For some people they exercise and that gives them energy, all these other things. So I think the biggest thing anyone could ever do is work out how to work themselves. Because no one else does that for you unfortunately. Whatever works for everyone is all different as well. I can sit here and give everyone the same kind of tips, but unfortunately, it won’t work will it? Because you don’t have the same life as me.
Yeah, I guess it’s just compromising your laziness?
I wouldn’t say it’s laziness. Maybe just phrasing it as a pedestal. It’s like a bias. It’s like the world has this image of creatives as having loads of time, but also scatty and unorganised right? Like art’s spontaneous or creativity’s gotta be spontaneous and not even fit into boxes and boundaries and things like that. Whereas in reality? The opposite is true. That often if you need to literally do something quickly you’ll do it or the actual compromise is part of why it makes it good. You know, that’s why A.I. art for example, there’s no compromise there. There can be meaning and cool ideas for sure, but because there’s no process to it beyond coming up with a phrase, which is basically a copywriter’s job, like you’re just a copywriter. It’s the pain and the hurt and the process which is why it makes some work what it is, like the Paramore album cover, everyone’s like so what’s that random line on it?
I don’t know... It’s because it was pinned on a fence because it was just a white thing they had and that break in it? It’s just part of the fence. For me it’s just kind of like that… where it’s just like, in a world today. someone would have photoshopped out that fucking line and I think that’s part of the problem. We’ve stopped trying to deal with stuff and we want this hyperreal, hyper sort of unreal kind of curated version of things and I think that’s been the modern problem. I think ever since kind of The Matrix came out if I were to pinpoint it to anything the second they did that bullet time sequence it was over for cinema. It went from: we don’t need everything to be in camera anymore. We can now do CGI where the camera can be anywhere. That just changed everything. Look at big blockbusters now, it’s like the impossible camera like there isn’t a camera in space or there? That’s what separates like James Cameron and Denis Villeneuve, is that all their camera shots of kind of realistic like they’ll put a GoPro on some of the creatures in Avatar. It’s just things like, again, it’s like anti kind of hyperreality. So yeah, it’s all tied together I think, if that makes sense. It’s like because we’re in a world where people want everything so hyper-curated and they’re the protagonist of everything, that’s part of the problem. It’s that we idealise things and therefore maybe don’t get them done or it’s maybe not the output that we wanted.
But yeah. The pedestal to creating: It’s getting rid of the steps to create. Because making actual doing work is easy. It’s getting down to do it that’s hard and I think that’s literally the kind of difference. Like I said, a job comes in the way of wherever energy you’ve got. If someone’s died that week like you might not be in the same headspace and I think yeah getting down to create is always the hardest bit.
Yeah, I think. Kind of what I’ve noticed speaking tool like a handful of Freelancers now. and when I mentioned AI it’s all kind of the same praising all paraphrased but… It’s pretty much the sensibility of someone having made it and that human error involved in the process. Like you say, the constraints of having not always an ideal window to make things in is attractive. It’s human. It makes things good.
Yeah. Yeah flaws, isn’t it? It’s the imperfections in it that makes someone perfect kind of things. That classic cheesy kind of line!
“The pedestal to creating: It’s getting rid of the steps to create. Because making actual doing work is easy. It’s getting down to do it that’s hard and I think that’s literally the kind of difference.”
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