01 → Aleks Phoenix @aleks_phoenix
Aleks Phoenix (He/Him) is a freelance graphic designer from Mexico City, Mexico. His work is primarily in the realm of delicately designed film posters. The following interview is available in transcript form below, and in podcast form if you’d prefer it.
RTG: How has your graphic design journey looked, were you in education? Self taught?
Aleks Phoenix: I actually went to college here in Mexico and, and got started on starting graphic design. I felt, well, I must say that one important thing is that since I was six or five years old, I wanted to be a filmmaker. I said, I was going to be a filmmaker and I want it, and it was my passion and cinema has always been part of my life and my greatest passion. But as I was growing up, my parents were not really supportive about that. I actually did not know how to study or getting to filmmaking here in Mexico.
We do have great Mexican filmmakers making it huge in America and Hollywood but it's not something that is the truth or the reality for most of us or for filmmakers here in Mexico. It's really challenging. We don't have a solid industry or the means to make movies. So I did not know even how to study graphic design, sorry, filmmaking, or getting to film school. The selection process to get into one of the schools I found was very hard, very complicated, and I just felt like I wasn't really ready to be rejected. So I just thought, well, what else do I like, and I've always liked visual communication and especially specifically editorial design, books, magazines, all that. I always felt very compelled to those. And I don't know. I just saw that graphic design was another way of expressing my passion for visual storytelling. And I already made some stuff in high school or anything. So I felt like, okay, maybe this is a good way to pursue a career in something else.
Unfortunately, I hated it. I did not like any of it. The experience was very excruciating for me. I was asked to draw and I'm not an illustrator myself. I used to draw. Because I love to draw, but once you have to do it for a grade or a certification, it takes the fun out of it. Also most of my classmates were really good at drawing.
Of course, one thing is being an artist and one thing is being a designer, but the point when both connect, it's where I started to feel really like I was struggling, like if I don't draw these amazing pieces, I'm not an artist. What am I? I don't know, the program was very lacking, was very confusing. It mixed art with marketing, with video editing. And I mean, I know it's supposed to give you enough tools that you pick, but for me, it was just like confusing and, and like, there's no certain direction where to go. So on my last semester, I just dropped college. I felt like it wasn't something I wanted to pursue, like just for the certificate of it.
I was really going through a heartbreak. I was going through my own soul searching journey. So I was like, I don't want to.. school is taking too much out of me. What can I do? So I started looking for some jobs, applying to some jobs. I don't know how to say it in English but like when you work for free.
So like pro bono volunteer work?
Yeah, something like that. Yeah, because you're requested to do that for your degree. So I was like, well, maybe I can find a cool place to do that whether I decide or not to finish college, Maybe in the meantime I can get that done, you know, like find out somewhere I can do..
An Internship?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's it. That's the word. An internship. Everybody was doing their internship in the university and I was like, I cannot spend a second more here. So I tried to find another place where I can do it. And I actually end up, I thought to myself, okay, what do I love? Where do I want to spend more time? And if I do finish graphic design, what do I want? Where do I want to be?
Because you needed to a six month internship and It just popped into my head, well, a museum, a gallery. I love galleries here in Mexico City. We have lots of galleries. We have a great scope of museums and cultural places. So I thought, okay, I love that. I love to spend time there. I love art so maybe I can connect with that. And I just applied to a internship program on my favorite museum (Museo Nacional de Arte) and they picked me. I wasn't expecting anything out of it, because I thought I was a terrible designer. I was never going to be a graphic designer.
So I just ended up there and I assemble a book of only passion projects, none of my school work, and I had no clients. So I was like, what am I showing to them if I don't have any experience? Um, so I thought, well, maybe. What I've done for fun, and I've done lots of like intricate, very me, type arrangements or layouts.
I made some brochures and editorial projects in school, which were my best projects from school. Uh, and they picked me and I was like, this is odd. Uh, well. I guess I'm not that bad. Three months in the internship, they told me, do you want to start working as an official, a professional job here? We can just sign your paper and you can just start. I was like, are you fucking kidding me, really? I realized that the job real world is very different from college world. And I love being a graphic designer for a check. Well, it wasn't the money because I was actually paid very low. It was just like, it was so real.
It was so different from doing it for a grade. You're not doing it for a teacher. You're doing it for a client or in this case for the museum, but for a boss. There's something like you're really required to bring your best because you are now a professional designer with a desk in a place that you have to bring your best to. They're hiring you because of what you do and what you bring. It's not like you're just one, one more in a room full of 30 people just doing their own thing for a certificate. I don't know if that makes sense, but I was like, this is so different. People actually like what I did and what I made. So I was like, this is so satisfying, that I ended up working there. So it all started from there.
I spent a year in the museum, well, the gallery, we call it museum here, but it's more like a gallery because there's lots of paintings and it's a beautiful place. It's a very neoclassical palace because here in Mexico, we have that on downtown. So also the place itself was very inspiring to be in. Eventually, when they changed the head, the director of the museum and all the authorities around it, I got sacked because I was too young and I was already doing so much for the museum. I thought that was a very valuable lesson. I felt like, oh, they're never. Uh, how you say like, they're never firing me because I'm too good at what I do. I do so much of the museum's advertising and I'm so talented, but that was a very humbling experience because it was like, yeah, but you're no one, there's, there's no one in any sort of job that it's so, how you say, um, irreplaceable.
See Aleks’ portfolio of work at the museum here.
I mean, you can be amazing at what you do, but still. My bosses, I had 2 bosses, both have been in there like 14 years. They were not firing the 10 year old people. They were firing the new guy that just had a year here. And I mean, he's talented, but there's also politics and other interests in a job and a place like this. So I got fired. It was heartbreaking. I was like, oh my God why, I was going to spend my whole life in here. There's nothing else for me out there! And I was wrong.
So that's how I started. Then I got into marketing agencies, which were horrible. I got to work with startups developing branding. I used to say I was going to fund my own branding studio because I love branding so much, I used to work at a radio station for three years. It was a very important radio station here in Mexico and they have like 40 something radio shows, it was just ridiculous, the amount of radio shows they had.One of the things that I made at my arrival was try to unify the identity of the radio station, having so many shows and each radio host of each show had their own vision of their own visual identity. But when we created the website, it looked horrible because it has, it had no uniformity. Let's say it had no balance. It had no direction. So I came up with the idea of actually making posters for each program, each radio show and try to make them look cinematic in a way. How you convey a radio show through image and that's how the posters started to pop up.
Like let's make a poster for each radio show and let's make them really cinematic and striking and attractive. So we have some advertising material, quality material to work with on social media and people really connected to it. The radio house were connected to it too. Uh, yeah, I also start writing in there because I also love to write. I explored writing, storytelling, copy writing sort of stuff on the radio station. I was requested to make some spots for some campaigns. I was requested to make other stuff beside graphic design, which I really love. I was already feeling so constrained by the graphic designer role that I felt like I need to do something else, something more creative, something more expressive.
I was a volunteer. On the block of the radio station, because being press media, we were also invited to cultural shows, music festivals. So it was really enriching in that sense. I could actually write reviews on films, reviews, music releases, reviews and concerts, and yeah, that's how I also explored that. Eventually I dropped that to pursue poster design. It was a huge risk, but it has paid off and I feel really grateful for that. So that's to put it in words.
To what capacity was it sort of motivated by family to do graphic design? Was it just something that would make money and filmmaking just wasn't feasible?
I think both my parents were supportive in the sense that they always connected me to art. They always took me to art exhibits or, uh, I don't know, art workshops or museums or whatever. But they were never expecting me to take a route or a career in art or anything. They were just like, what do you want to go for? And when I tell them filmmaking, they were like, that's odd. Why don't you try something else? Then I said, I wanted to be a writer. And they were like, oh, that's cool. You can be a writer. So I don't think it was for them. Do something that is going to give you money was more like something that we understand.
I feel like it was more like that, like what's filmmaking actually? In the end when I picked graphic design, they were like, oh, okay, well, I guess that's something, um, if you feel good with it! They never really, really get involved into: What does that mean to you? Uh, what's it about? No, they were just like, oh, as long as you stay in college or as long as you stay in school, doing something out of your life. So when I dropped school I already like set a boundary or a distance between their opinion and my life. So it was like, because I'm an only child there were lots of expectations put on myself, but in the end I felt like there was a very tiny rebellious side of myself where I was like, okay, this is my life. I appreciate your support, but I'm going to take my own decisions. So of course they were really disappointed when I dropped college on the last semester. They were like, are you kidding us? But. I was like, I hate it. and I hate it. I'm the one who's going to leave with this decision. And I want to pursue this career. I'm actually going for a job in this career. So please, this is going to be better than sulking in college. So yeah, I don't think they were fully supportive in the sense that they were not like, oh yeah, follow your dreams. If you want to be a filmmaker, let's, let's research how we can do it. I think it was more like in the end that I just quit. Uh, and they were just like, yeah, do whatever you want. I do not make them part of my professional life. They don't even understand what I do, but they see that I'm happy with it. So it's like, oh, just go for it. So yeah, I don't know. It's kind of in between.
When you moved to freelance work full time, is that full time now?
Yeah, it is full time.
How did you weigh up? You said it was like quite a risk, obviously, going from a consistent sort of income. Did you have a client base at the time you decided to shift over to it? How was that?
I had some clients, but not enough to say, oh, I'm going to have a great deal or pool of clients after me. I think I was so drained and emotionally affected by my full time job, that I was getting sick, I was gaining weight, I was sleep deprived, I was anxious, I felt humiliated by many of the client’s feedback in the agencies. On the other side, I had many people praising my work, but it wasn't the praise. Like the vanity of it, it was just like people were really acknowledging you're so good at this or, oh, I would love to work with you on these or clients from abroad, actually reaching out to me that I felt like there's people acknowledging my work here, but I'm focusing all my energy on this place where I'm having the worst time of my life and I'm constantly told how terrible I am at what I do.
“I think I was so drained and emotionally affected by my full time job, that I was getting sick, I was gaining weight, I was sleep deprived, I was anxious, I felt humiliated by many of the client’s feedback in the agencies.”
I was going to therapy with a psychologist back then, and I remember one talk we had when I was deciding to drop my full time job and pursue this or not, and one of the reasons I was not taking the leap was I told her: I don't know what I mean, what I'm going to wake up tomorrow looking at my ceiling and saying, I don't have any money. Is that what's expecting me if I take the leap? She told me: oh no, if that's the only possibility that you're seeing for yourself, do not quit your job. Nobody would quit their jobs if that's the only future possible they see. If that's the only future possible you see then don't do it. But I think you're not seeing the whole picture. I think there's enough people interested in what you do, that you're not believing in yourself. That really challenged that sort of line of thought.
That really upfront confrontation with myself was really powerful and that really inspired me. And I have to say that That's when my parents were really supportive because they were like, do not worry if you need economic support while you find your way, we can provide you some. So I knew I wasn't going to be on the street. So I was like, okay, I'm going to take one month of not doing anything. I actually took one month of just watching movies. I used to watch like five movies in a day. I had some savings and I already had like two or three clients. So I felt like, okay, I can survive for a month. Um, but the first six months were really, really, really hard. I was having clients for like one client every two months.
So it wasn't enough. Then after six or seven months I got contacted by an agency from LA, from Los Angeles and that was a huge, a huge gig. It was a really important agency. I mean, it was a very taxing and frustrating, experience. It was like a boot camp because I was being asked to do things that I have never done in my life and getting into the industry. Hollywood industry. I spent like seven months in there. It was an amazing learning experience, but it was also very frustrating because I had to be committed to commercial standards and to big studio standards, and there's something also very frustrating about you trying to make something in your own style, um, that's another experience that maybe I can delve more into later. But my point is that I think that when I started working with that agency I got a really good income. I got a really good perspective on what poster design was, and I had to push myself into a new realm of learning skills, editing skills.
I used to make all my posters in Illustrator but they were asking me to do everything in Photoshop. So I had one or two days to learn all of Photoshop and that was critical for me. Now I have that skill. Now I know how to make posters in Photoshop. So yeah, my point is that was my leap from like, I just couldn't take it anymore. I was having health issues due to my job and I knew that wasn't life either so I don't know. I just took the risk.
What is your idea of contentment? For you it sounds like it's kind of a balance between an income and not going insane, if that makes sense?
Of course, it's really romantic to say, Oh, I'm going to be an artist and that's it. There's not going to be debts, taxes, clients, food, needs. That's really a romantic perspective. That's not how it works. So even though. Even, I mean, on the agency, I was one out of ten art directors working at the agency.
My team was 15 art directors. All of them except me were Photoshop artists. Most of them were self taught but they were really highly skilled. They are the people that make the Marvel posters and now I appreciate Marvel posters, not from a creative standpoint, but from a technical standpoint, I wasn't able to do that. It's silly. It's sick. The amount of work that goes into Marvel posters, and I do admire my colleagues for that. I wasn't able to pull that. Never. That's not something I wanted to pursue either, but when I was in the same team of the people doing that, I felt like, why are they having me here? I'm unable to do this! But it was very cool because the VP of the company is the one who asked for me and contacted me directly. He told me we are looking to expand our pool of creators and designers. I really connect with your style. I think your style is a very arty, very indie looking, but commercially appealing enough to be an official key art. So are you interested in being part of this? But what I discovered was that none of my comps were being selected by the clients. I was requested to make between 5 and 10 comps in 3 days. And that was just ridiculous for me. I like to hyper focus on a single key art and nail it.
Number 3, type is not important because either the title treatment is already locked by the studio, or it's something that it's not really important to the layout or the key art. So none of my skills or strengths were really doing anything for them. And I was just feeling frustrated of investing so much time and not getting anything selected because I do want it to, to be like, oh my god my comp was selected for this huge release. I wasn't able to do that. I was getting paid great.
Yeah. I had the possibility to build a very solid saving account. Thanks to that job. There was a emotional part that wasn't fulfilling and that's a romantic aspect of a creator. Like, oh, but I want to love my job too, but I want to be selected, but I want to be happy. And it's like, well, there's really romantic thoughts of well, but you're getting paid really good. Yeah. But that's not enough. And that's when I realized that. Okay, it's not just the money. I do want to make a living out of this, so I think you're right. I think as for now with my clients, I have many clients I would love to work with, but they're not able to pay me my full rate or my full quote. I'm always open to negotiate and most of the time we reach an arrangement. But I've also learned to say no to projects that as much as I love them and as much as they mean so much to me, or that I think they're exciting in the long run or in the huge, in the whole picture, aren’t going to work for me as an independent creator and if I want to be an independent creator, I do need to make it affordable to me. So I do believe I'm in between right now. I definitely do not see myself going back to a full time job in an office or a marketing agency. I do not see myself going back to a film advertising agency making ten comps a day and feeling frustrated because I'm not at the skill level of the other creators and I'm feeling frustrated too. I don't know. I think now people is looking for what I do and my style and I think that's really fulfilling too. I hope that makes sense.
“I've also learned to say no to projects that as much as I love them and as much as they mean so much to me, or that I think they're exciting, in the long run or in the whole picture, aren’t going to work for me as an independent creator and if I want to be an independent creator, I do need to make it affordable to me.”
I should ask, when I looked at your Instagram today and it said, you know, you've been working for ten years. Is that everything we've spoken about or is that just as freelance?
No, ten years as a whole, as a freelancer I think I've been two years.
Two years. So it's quite, well not recent, but you know...
Yeah, definitely. I started making posters during the lockdown, during COVID, it was my coping mechanism and I feel like. I needed to do something because I hated my job. I hated the situation. I was locked in my house. What do I do? I started making collages, which was fairly random. And then eventually I felt like, oh, I could make a poster. Oh, I love cinema. Well, I should. And it started from there, but it's been 2 years since I fully devoted myself to freelancing. So yeah, out of those ten, two years have been this journey. It's quite recent and I'm still learning about it.
Do you find the shift to freelancing, I guess, in Covid and stuff to be isolating? Even just networking and socializing with other creatives? Do you have a way to work around that?
I'm a very introverted guy. It may not seem like it. Maybe people think I'm not, but I, I'm, I don't, I'm not, uh, yeah. I'm an introvert. I like to spend time by myself. after working so much time in an office and with team and people, I actually enjoy that. When I was working on the radio station, I used to lead the students, they’d come into the radio station to work and I used to work with them. So I do enjoy teamwork, but I think that any artistic career is a very lonely one. You need to be alone to create. You need to be by yourself and with yourself to create. So I don't think I feel isolated because funnily enough, I've connected with more people now because I'm talking to you. You're from UK. I talk to people from: Egypt, I talk to people from Australia. I talk to people from Venezuela, so I feel connected in a way because I'm always engaging in conversations or these sort of talks and as an introvert, I don't really need social interaction. I like to be by myself.
When I used to work in an office it was so distracting to do my own thing. Surrounded by many people and many things happening. So for me, it has actually been really enjoyable and pleasurable. Um, and I connect with people. I actually did not know there was a whole poster community when I started doing this. I had no idea there was other creators doing posters for fun. I had no idea there were whole profiles or huge Instagram communities built around posting poster creators. I didn't know there was people wanting to make that as a living. And I wasn't actually pursuing that as a living myself when I started. So I think now, I'm more selective on the people I connect with because now I connect with creators that are like myself are into the sort of art. So I do not feel isolated, but I think that's just my personality too.
As a freelancer, how similar or I suppose different is it to how you kind of imagined that kind of workflow that as a full time job.
Like the difference between my expectation of it?
Yeah. Like the expectations versus the reality of Freelance work.
On the bright side, I think I had such low expectations as I was already saying. And as I told my therapist, like, oh, I'm going to be a failure and I'm not going to have any money, that I think on the bright side. It has been better than I thought because I haven't been, I have the chance to connect with clients and people have reached out to me. On the not so bright side, it's very, very hard to find clients. I mean, once you get into that, it's really fulfilling and it's really enriching, but it's hard to find people willing or not willing, I think it's not a sort of will. It's about economic possibilities. Making movies is really hard, really expensive. So many people, when they reach out to you for you to make their poster, they're like, oh, I don't have that money. Oh I can't invest too much in a poster. Of course, there is these people that can, and are willing to, and they respect your work and the poster art so much that they're like, of course. No, but the reality is that independent filmmakers are also independent creators like you. So it's good to establish a good, healthy, flexible working relationship.
“On the not so bright side, it's very, very hard to find clients. I mean, once you get into that, it's really fulfilling and it's really enriching, but it's hard to find people willing or not willing, I think it's not a sort of will. It's about economic possibilities.”
For instance, my first jobs were half my rate, and I actually did not know if my rate was good or not, or too high or too low. So I just had to start somewhere and then see where it was taking me. But I also took like three posters just for free. I made posters for free and it was already beginning my freelancing career; Preoccupied and worried for my income but I was taking projects for free because I felt like I need some official work to back up my portfolio. So I think that was a challenging part, like when to set a boundary, when to do something for fun and when to actually start saying: no. I'm not going to do it for free, even though I could start, I could still do it because I don't have any other project, but yeah, I think that's one challenging, that, that's one reality check. It's important.
But the other one. That is very, how you say like, yeah, I'm going to say it given that people were reaching out for what I do. I felt like, oh, they're just going to go for my first idea and they're going to accept everything I do. And that's not the case. No. It doesn't matter. Even if you have a very established style that people is coming to you or reaching out to you because, oh, I love what you do. They're not going to love the first thing you present to them. That's ridiculous. Well, I've had that experience. Yeah, it's two out of ten. Yeah. I dream, it's very fulfilling and it's like, oh my God, are you really accepting this poster as it is? That's that where's the joke? You're pulling my leg. But no, most of the time it's not like that. You still have to work on revisions, deal with clients, deal with confusing feedback; deal with your own expectations of your own work because I had amazing work in progress or amazing drafts and the clients pick another thing and I'm like, I hate that, you know, I would love /this/ draft to be in my portfolio. Why are you not picking it? But it's their own film.
You also have to deal with invoicing. Following up on emails, on meetings, on revisions, on payments. So there's no fun in that. So it's very like, oh yeah, I'm a full time poster designer because I'm so good. Oh, well, that's a side, just one side of it, but there's the whole responsibility. It's just, it's still a job and there's a part of your job that is always not going to be fun, if that makes sense. There's always responsibility to be taken care of.
The other side is that when you have so many clients. And you also have your passion project, your passion calling for making posters. I do sometimes feel frustrated of not having enough time to make alternative posters. It's like, oh shit. I have to make the poster for this client, but I really want to make a poster for this cool movie I made, but I should make the client poster first, but I really feel drawn to it. So. It's been very hard to balance things out.
The last thing I would say is that I am a huge procrastinator. So I have a due date for a week and I start working on the project one day before the deadline. And it's stressful. And I feel why do I push myself into this? I'm really a terrible designer because I shouldn't be doing it. I have to be more responsible or apparently I work very good under pressure. So But it's anxiety inducing, so all those things are very complicated to deal with.
Do you feel, the creative freedom of freelance work, sort of negates from having to wear the hats of management, invoicing, or I guess the boring sides of the business?
You mean like if that takes away of the creativity?
Yeah. Is it draining or do you think it's just worth it?
Oh, it's worth it. Yeah, definitely. It's definitely worth it. I will always encourage people to take the leap responsibly. Like you really need to have to know it's not going to be easy. I have friends that. Want to pursue poster making as a full time job, but they still keep their full time job, which is okay, but they're like complaining a lot about not finding the time to make all that or to take enough clients. And I'm like, well, yeah, because it's going to be that you reach a point where you're going to have to decide, and you're going to have to forsake and renounce to all the security that a full time job gives you and the benefits that a full time job gives you, but you're going to have other, it may sound pretentious, but like existential benefits, you have to be responsible for your own life. So it's on you. So of course it's worth it. It's challenging, but it's worth it.
“It's going to be that you reach a point where you're going to have to decide, and you're going to have to forsake and renounce to all the security that a full time job gives you and the benefits that a full time job gives you, but you're going to have other, it may sound pretentious, but like existential benefits.”
Yeah. Okay, that's an interesting way to phrase it, I suppose, it's existential...
Yeah! I don't have dental care. I don't have medical care. I have to take that. I have friends that are like, oh, I hate my job. I would love to do what you do. Oh, my job is paying for this dental care. And I'm like, oh, I don't have that. Or I have friends like, oh, I'm so frustrated. I hate my life. I hate my job. I'm going to Japan. And I'm like, oh, that's so cool. I dont have- either I go to Japan or I- I send that money to my saving account in case I don't have plans next month. So you can always play the victim in either role. It's like, okay, but what are you sacrificing? I hate that word, but it's true. In order to pursue this. I have other things that I could renounce to, but I don't want to, so... Yeah.
[Aleks wanders off screen briefly] I'm back. Sorry.
No worries.
Do you mind if I get something to, some snacks?
Yeah, I see a cat in the background.
[Aleks glances behind him to his ginger cat sleeping at his bed.] Oh, yeah. Haha.
It's cute!
He's very old. Well, I shouldn't say that. Uh, but he's 16 years old and he sleeps most of the time. Do you have any pets?
No, not anymore unfortunately. Definitely at some point when I can afford to keep one.
Do you like cats or dogs?
Oh, I had a Pug and a Pekingese for many years, we had some cats when I was younger, but yeah. I don't know, I do like cats as well. I guess it's just, I don't know, they just kind of do their own thing more than dogs. I had to cat sit my cousin's cats, and they just leave for nine hours. They just disappear, and I'm like, you're sure this is okay for your pet to just leave? They're like, yeah, don't worry, they'll just sort themselves out, they might not even eat dinner tonight.
Well, my cat is very, my cat is very indoor. I don't know, I didn't like cats before him, so I think you should, you, it's only like, they come to you, and you connect to them, and suddenly you like cats. So, it's, it's, it's an acquired taste, I think!
Do you have like a separate office space, or is it just? Like your bedroom, what’s the sort of situation?
I would like to have a separate office but I cannot afford one right now. Um, even in my own house, I don't have enough rooms because I have other roomies... so, I cannot have a separate space. I would love to, and I know it's very recommendable even for your mental health, but for now it's as it is, and I try to make the most out of it.
Yeah, I mean, at university at first I was in halls, so that's more, I don't know how it is in Mexico or America, but I was living with like nine people and then I moved to a house. Now it's three other people and I've got my own room, which is quite nice.
I mean, it's your own space. For me, it hasn't been that terrible. And I know many people are like, oh no, I need to separate my bedroom and resting space from my working space. I do believe that's healthy, but I don't know. I just painted and redecorated the whole thing just precisely to make it look more appealing to me and I'm spending too much time here, but I'm just like, okay, I'm going to make the most of it So.. yeah, I don't think that's mandatory for creating some cool stuff!
On the freelance side of things, I guess you said sometimes you make adjustments to your rate or whatever the case is for projects you really want to do, then sometimes you just have to skip on them for whatever reason. Do you have a contract written or is everything individual? Has that changed a lot over the two years you've been freelancing?
I have a document that has my logo, my branding. I actually over fixated on the design of that document for too long. I started like having a very simple, brief description of my service, like film poster design, blah, blah, blah, what it is in one line. What are the assets you can expect, the deliverable files, the quote. And I always request half of it to start a project and half by the end of the project. So I have a 50% deposit. All of those things are specified there and then I send that to the clients.
“I always request half of it to start a project and half by the end of the project. So I have a 50% deposit.”
I get contacted a lot, mostly through Instagram. So when they ask me for my quotes or my rate, I always ask them for their email so we can move the conversation to an email and just keep it from there. I think that's, that gives it some formality. It's not a contract in itself, but there's a document that expresses what they can expect from me. I've signed contracts, but mostly for agencies. They ask you of course to sign NDAs, contracts, blah, blah, blah.
But it's more on the agency side, it's not with filmmakers, but I just had a very disappointing experience with a filmmaker from France. He's your age and he was, he contacted me because he was Having entering or submitting a two minute short film to Nikon film festival. He was like overpraising my work. Like, oh, I love your work. I asked, how much can you afford? Because I was like, I get you're very young. You're a student and you are submitting to a film festival and your film is two minute long. So I already knew it was too much to ask, for him to pay my whole rate, I was like, okay, how much you can you afford?... oh, I have to check because I don't know, but it would come out of my own pocket and everybody volunteered! That's something that really pisses me off when people really are very insistent on oh but all the crew is volunteering! And I'm like, oh. Good for them. I do not volunteer. So it's like, oh, but all, all these are all, everybody has done it for free!
I never sent him a quote. I never sent him an email. It was just so casual. Like, okay, I'm going to help this guy. How much can you afford? I was this bit of saying to him, okay, I'll do it for free. But I was like, No. It was, it's a personal boundary.
I'm like, how much can he give? And he told me, well, I think as much as I can give is one hundred dollars, and I was like, okay, well, yeah sure. Let's do it. Oh and one more thing. He had a very specific deadline to submit the poster and I only had one week to work on it. As much as I can make a poster in one night, I don't like to have one week and that's it to develop a whole project because there are revisions or what if I don't like it, what if I have more time, blah blah.
I eventually made it. Uh, he was very like, oh, how is, how is it going? Do you have it? Uh, blah, blah. He was behind my back and I already had other clients, official clients paying my whole fee that I had to also respond to. And I was like, yeah, give me just one more night. I am trying to sort all things out. Eventually I made a poster. He loved it. He posted it. He sent it, and he never got the one hundred dollars to me. He created these whole excuses around it. I sent him an invoice and he just disappeared. So I knew what I was getting into, but I was really disappointed because I've had other very independent young filmmakers pay the whole amount of my quote. So it was very disappointing to find someone that was not fully honest and responsible on what we agreed, but I think it's part of that half of this journey. It's not that common a thing to happen, but yeah, it's not easy. There was no contract, there was no email communication, but there was a agreement and I was always very honest, like I'm not doing it for free. So I thought it was enough, but it wasn't. It was disappointing. Um, yeah, I think I lost track of your question. I'm sorry, but yeah. It's hard to not have a contract. I think I should, but I don't know. It's like, you also trust people, the document and the email communications, I don't know.
Do you find a lot of clients kind of, I suppose don't like understand the value, like you as a service, they don't understand the value of your work as opposed to what they're expecting?
Maybe they do not. It is true that many people in the filmmaking industry do it for free because they're trying to build portfolio... actors are trying to make reels out of their work. Filmmakers are trying to do something for the joy of making films. I have two filmmaking clients that, of course, have their full time jobs and are working on their debut short film. I get that sometimes people is like I want to be in your movie so I can put that on my resume. For me, I'm not there anymore. I have been doing a graphic design thing for ten years. I'm doing my own thing on my Instagram.
I do like to support filmmakers and independent ones and if I connect really, really, really much with a film, of course I'm able to do it almost for free. But I think they do not get, this is my full time job now. I'm not doing it for exposure or the joy of experience in the end, it's not the same of being an actor and having your face on a poster, on a film, blah, blah. Being a graphic designer, nobody knows or cares who you are. It's like graphic designers are, you're erased from every project. You're like anonymous work done. So I don't get your exposure. It really doesn't help me. I need the money. I need to build a career. I have taken the risk to pursue. So I think most of these sort of experiences have to do with people who did not get that this is not just for the joy of it. If that makes sense.
“Being a graphic designer, nobody knows or cares who you are. It's like graphic designers are, you're erased from every project. You're like anonymous work done. So I don't get your exposure. It really doesn't help me. I need the money. I need to build a career.”
I had, I had an experience, with a poster series I've done for a TV show I've liked to watch, Poker Face. It's ran by, you know, Rian Johnson, the Star Wars director. He and the lead actress (Natasha Lyonne) have shared pretty much every single one of those onto their feeds and stuff.
So cool.
It's not like he really posts a lot of stuff. So I mean I guess it was strange because in your mind you're like, okay, a celebrity has shared my work. Now the the followers are gonna come in I'm gonna like, I'm gonna skyrocket!
Yeah, it's going to be my breakthrough! Yeah...
I'm gonna be like you said, I'll be auteur on the next like Star Wars movie, making the poster, whatever. I've had some attention from it, but it's not substantial I guess, the exposure, I think is maybe over, like, over expect, over expectancy, um-
Mm-hmm, overrated.
Yeah, I think, now that I've had that experience, with social media, there is that sort of tendency. I do like to see the numbers go up and stuff, but now that I've kind of had that experience, I'm also kind of like, well, it doesn't really mean much.
You know, what happened to me with, I guess, you know, AMP (Alternative Movie Posters)?
Yeah, yeah, the poster website?
They have an Instagram there and they post a lot of creators a lot and I've always wanted to be featured on their page under, like, Oh my God, I saw all this work and I used to tag them and tag them along. And they were never paying any attention to what I was doing. And I was like, Oh, that's so frustrating. And of course you start second guessing and self doubting. And of course, if this profile on Instagram is dedicated to this realm I work in do not support or feature me; that must mean I'm terrible, which is what social media does. Suddenly. One day they actually featured me and I was like over the moon and I was like, oh my god, they're featuring me I'm acknowledged and legitimized by them. I don't know, what the hell, but it's just that feelings stay like for twenty minutes? Then I got featured again, then I got featured again, and that they stopped featuring me again for like one year. And then I saw other creators and I saw that they post a lot of illustration creators, and I was like, of course, because I'm not an illustrator. I do not have anything of quality to give to the poster community. All these self deprecating thoughts about my work just because this specific poster Instagram site is not featuring me. And suddenly after all that, they do not pick me. They again featured me last month, and actually my poster was selected as AMP of the week that week, which had never happened. Again, I was like, oh my God, well, they do like me, they do include me, they do pick me, and then it just went out in one day and I was like, okay, but is that giving me more clients? Is that giving me more security? Is it speaking truly about my capacity or my skills or my talent? What is it actually giving to me?
I think that's the problem with social media. I wouldn't complain on social media given that it's also a platform where I get most of my clients. But I think, as you said, you have this exposure and it's very nice and it makes you feel validated in a way, unfortunately. I have really cool posters that I really like, but they have really not that many likes or that many shares. And I feel like, why not? If it's so cool. Well, that means, that doesn't mean it's terrible. So I think social media and popularity and acknowledgement disturbs our reality. But then when I started posting my first posters, I did not care about that at all. And now I am here because of that other version of myself that actually didn't care about AMP or whatever. So I get that feeling. I mean, it's amazing that your your work has been featured that way. Congratulations on that because it's fantastic. It is an accomplishment in a way. But you're right, it's not giving you something more in the long run. That's not where we should focus.
As far as I'm aware, you don't have a portfolio website or anything?
I used to have one on Squarespace. It was up for a year, and when I had to pay the license again, it was just too high for me. It was cool to have that online presence and I think it's a really professional way of showcasing yourself. But again, all my clients, even the VP of the agency from LA, all of those clients found me through Instagram and I was like, I think I want to focus more on my Instagram presence. One of my projects for this year is to get get back up my my website. Actually, the video I posted today is part of that sort of like personal branding, um, the, uh, solidification that I'm aiming to, especially with my website. But it's not my top three. It's not in my top three priorities. But yeah, all my portfolio right now is on an Instagram.
I suppose with it all being an Instagram and it's I guess it's all very based on the final product. Is perfectionism a thing that you kind of have to deal with a lot of the time? Do you have a line you kind of draw where you're like, okay, I've spent this much time on XYZ. That's me. I'm posting it.
I think most of the people consider themselves to be perfectionists and there was a point when I started to stop calling myself that because I was like, oh my god, all the people say the same thing about themselves. Like, oh, I'm such a perfectionist. I'm so upset. And then and what's that really like?
I do believe I really want to. I do hyper focus and really obsess over things. Yes. And it's really challenging when you're not nailing something. But I also think, number one, I don't know if that's a skill or not, but I am very quick. I'm very productive and very fruitful in my graphic work. So I feel like once I have reached a direction or a concept, I'm already on the other side. Like if I don't have a clear idea or mindset of what I upholster, I want to make or how it's going to be, I don't make it so I don't spend too much time frustrating on the process of not reaching opportunities.
It's more like, I have this idea and I'm going to make my best to make it work. I'm going to be flexible with myself of changing the idea midway. I do struggle a lot with making it look professional, making it look, because I always think on an audience, I'm not one of those artists that create or refer himself. Not at all. I really think of an audience or the followers, in the sense of the people that is already following me. What do I want them to see or to get from this poster? I do, and I think that has also to do with without designers mentality, because a designer has to think in a client, in an audience, in a functional way. It's not like an artist that just can do whatever he wants. Um, so I do think I obsess over things, and if it's not looking good, I just drop it and be like, okay, I don't have the skills, the time or the patience to nail this. I'm not going to do it. I’d rather leave it for later or just scrap the idea.
But yeah, of course, my issue is that once I posted things, of course I’ve regretted it. I go back and overthink and second guess what I post. And after I post something and I go back to it one week later, I'm like, how the hell did I post that? It's so horrible. I thought it was cool, but I'm trying to do that less and less because it's not helpful. It's just deprecation. You're not going to be perfect, so I don't know. I think it's something I'm dealing with here.
I'm just scrolling through your Instagram page...
Yeah?
I suppose when you say it's for, I guess you have an audience in mind for the stuff you make. I sort of vaguely have that in mind as well, but I don't have a clear idea that all the time, how did you begin to sort of define what that is in your head?
You're asking about how do I think my audience is or?
Do you ever feel like you're sort of pigeonholed in a certain area of design, or a vibe or something?
Like if I feel constrained by that?
Yeah! If you feel limited or anything like that?
I think. I define my style, not my audience. And what that what what I mean by that is that I know illustration already that started to make a specific style of illustration and suddenly got popular. And then when I, when they wanted to go back or try is more experimental roots, their audience were like astrology. I think even in music, you can see that when when an artist explores with maybe other sort of sounds or genres, and maybe they run the risk of alienating their audience. I think in my case, even within my style, I think I am diverse in the sense that I can go very minimal, very, very simple or I can explore more approaches in terms of layout or, I think after my work in the agencies and after learning to work on Photoshop, most of my posters started to took to take a more commercially appealing vibe to it because now I knew how to do more things that I didn't know.
So I think my audience, or the people that I think follow me or have reached out to express their admiration for my work or whatever they are. They're not really asking to see something specific in terms of like a genre, a style that it's like my own style is what they're looking for. How would Aleks express this movie? One thing that I've been told a lot from clients and from colleagues and from fellow creators, is that one thing they admire or they like about my work, is that I have an eye for capturing an authentic moment in a specific frame, or a specific gesture and then elevating that through type and I think I always do that, it's not that I’m consciously oh I have to do the next awesome, authentic type oriented poster because that's what they were expecting it's just that's who I am as a designer. That's it. But, for instance two examples come to my mind:
Last year I started to explore more graphic approaches like with my Memoirs of a Geisha poster, my May December poster with the eyes, my recent In the Mood for Love poster, I push an image or a photograph into a more graphic approach, kinda illustration inspired so that it doesn't look like a simple still of a film. I try to make it look more illustration inspired or something, and I got some like two clients and a fellow colleague calling me like Oh, I saw you’re exploring more and more into different directions and I was like oh and you can say that but it still feels myself because it still is minimal, it still looks clean, it still looks typographic. So it was interesting to see three people that noticed I was exploring a different technique. That’s one thing. The other thing that comes to my mind is my most recent poster for The Killing of A sacred Deer:
I made something that I like to make a lot, and that I used to make a lot before which is breaking a title across the face of a character and pushing type into a more experimental I’d say. Not experimental, but an unconventional layout. I used the letters as tears falling down the face. I had a client that told me the other day, hah, he was like, the only reason I love your The Killing of A sacred Deer but the only reason it works is because it's such a well-known film that everybody already knows the title of it, for me it's a little too much, for my poster please do not do that. Please do not break my title. And I noticed that sometimes that's my style. I love to do that with type. I don't- I’m not concerned- Well, I’m more aware of readability now, but it was something that I used to do more like, I’m not fully concerned if it's readable from a glance. I think eventually you figure it out, we are not stupid. People is not stupid, our brains can put together a title. But I notice that sometimes many people, clients, not audience, but clients are kinda inbetween. They do know what I can do with type, they’ve seen my work, and they can say that's cool but please do not use it for my own work so I think that’s something that speaks about that yeah while maybe for a specific key art or a tribute poster it may really appeal to an audience and be really engaging or interesting to look at but on the more real side of clients it's not going to work. So that has nothing to do with an audience. It has to do with what the clients want within my style, so yeah, I think it's a challenge but I do feel like whatever I post is going to have my essence and I’m not betraying that. It will always look like myself I think.
“I’m not fully concerned if it's readable from a glance. I think eventually you figure it out, we are not stupid. People is not stupid, our brains can put together a title.”
I find that kinda fascinating. They look at your page and they like commission you for you and then they’re like but don't do it /too much/ like you, because I want to be a different way, and it's like, awh okay. I suppose it’s just strange.
Yeah, it is.
It's completely different but I should ask you about it: How do you feel about AI stuff that’s been shilled for by a lot of people at the moment. Certain people are starting to accept it in industry more and more. Are you optimistic about it sort’ve being a fad? Is it a job security danger at all?
I was asked about this the other day, and I think, technology. The purpose of technology is always to make things easier and evolve. Its- its, Technology in itself is always looking how to make things quicker, better and easier. And I think that’s what A.I. has been doing. AI I think is a way of making approachable non-artist people mostly or people who do not, cannot hire a director of photography, or an illustrator, blah, blah, blah. Just by typing whatever they have in their minds. That's basically what clients want designers to be. Machines that just take a line of thought and transform them into whatever they want. Thats been the life of a designer a lot, but now they can do it literally from a machine on a software and have that without all the whining, all the whatever. I think that's very appealing to people that find in technology ways of solving problems. Which I think is the purpose of technology. I don't think art solves problems any other time, our own problems, art has the meaning the artist and audience give to it. Art is really useless in terms of practicality or personality. And technology is not that, technology is quite the opposite. So when I’m always asked about this, I’ve seen great artists, great fellow creators using AI to their advantage and coming up with great work in terms of finishing touches or generating the key image or the main image of a more complex project. I’m like woah, I'm here for it if your skills like myself. I'm not able to draw, so I may resort to an illustrator, or a stock image, or an archive material to maybe perceive a certain direction I'm not able to fulfill. Now its available on the web, and its way more wild. But it's basically for me, the same sort of tool.
Now. That's in terms of AI as a tool. I think, if you see it as a tool and as a possibility of expanding your work or finding new ways of expressing yourself whatever that means. I think it's pretty awesome. I think that copyrighting, morale, ethic dilemma of it is what is really troubling because of course like, where do you draw a line between authenticity uh creative rights. Even actors, horrible that actors are having their faces scanned and then they can use their face or their voice in future films without hiring them. That’s awful. Now, having said that, all my clients and the people that is reaching out to me are willing to pay what I charge for what I do. And I think they could use the same budget to really pay for a cool software or whatever of AI or explore the possibilities of those tools but they are reaching out to me because they want what I make. They want the human, creative, sensitive aspect, and a machine or a software would never have a sensitive aspect.
I have an art critic friend here in Mexico and she is a well regarded art critic, and she this speech about AI, and she says this line that is very inspiring to me, she is very intense and hard in her comments but she says something like: If you are worried about AI taking your place as an artist, then you are not a real artist. Because that will never be replaced and she compares an artist and AI and is like, an artist is hungry, is thirsty, suffers, has pain, has doubt, feels loneliness. A machine or a software not only do not have that, it cannot be allowed to have that. Because imagine a machine that is hungry? It wouldn't be able to fulfill its purpose.
“An artist is hungry, is thirsty, suffers, has pain, has doubt, feels loneliness. A machine or a software not only do not have that, it cannot be allowed to have that. Because imagine a machine that is hungry? It wouldn't be able to fulfill its purpose.”
So… In this discourse, I found it fascinating that art in itself, and what I do, which is not a painting or a sculpture, it's a poster that has a marketing purpose. It still requires that flawed nature or side of humanity that allows me to convey a film in a way. And when I see a film and I get really compelled by a frame, a single frame, or there is a single gesture of a character where I am like [snaps fingers] that is a poster right there… That is given to the poster by my sensitivity. My sensitivity and my sensibility. I don't think that happens with A.I. at all, you just type what you want without really feeling it.
So to summarize all this: I feel worried in the sense that it's like, it's like when Canva happened. When Canva happened I was more worried about my career because Canva is this platform where clients have access to very nice templates where they can make whatever they want. But it is the same as twenty years before when designers were troubled because clients were making their logos on Powerpoint, or (Microsoft) Paint. So, it's the same thing, before it was Paint, now it's AI. In the end, designers and artists have never disappeared from the face of the Earth because we are here for a different purpose. So I’m not really worried. Itself of course is shocking and it's like oh my god it's really impressive what they do. It’s going to be higher to stand out now that researchers are more elevated in terms of quality.
But I actually had one client that actually made their temp poster, their concept poster, on AI. It looked beautiful, beautiful. Like a painting. It was crazy, and I was like, oh my god, that's so beautiful I wouldnt be able to replicate that in Photoshop myself and he was asking for me to make the poster. But I was like but you already have a cool poster from AI? and he was like, oh no, no that's just a reference. So, it's true, they want the artist. People who want an artist will always want an artist. So I think thats my feeling about it.
So would you say you’re optimistic about your future in freelance, just continuing to pursue the same sort’ve stuff you have been for the past two years?
I think I have to upgrade and update myself, like, I should get more skills and maybe one of those skills would be how to use AI to my benefit? I’m not interested at the moment but maybe I could eventually say oh, maybe if I cannot draw, if I cannot do this or that, maybe I can find a way to solve that on AI and then finish it and polish it, the canvas later. That is one thing that comes to my mind but I think I have other things I would like to try before AI like I don't know, more editing skills in terms of how to make a frame look better or whatever, so yeah, I’m optimistic I guess you could say.
I’ll start finishing off because I’m aware its been quite a long time. Do you have long term goals? You’ve done it for ten years now, do you have a place you wanna be in another ten years? Do you have an aspiration or is it sort’ve just take it as it comes and see where things lead you?
Oh, of course I will always have an aspiration. At most 90 to 95 percent of my clients have been short films, and I love short films. I think they are great storytelling pieces in themselves. A really nice tale you read that is concise and happens everything in a particular set time frame. But I would love to make more feature films and higher, and bigger releases. When I was working at the agency I got the chance to work for big releases. I had the chance to work for Smile, Haunting in Venice, uhh… The Creator but then it wasnt called The Creator, it was called True Love, it was in very early stages. Of course, again, none of my style resonated or worked with either of those films but I made some cool pieces that pushed me into trying stuff. But I always had that thing in there like why couldnt I be picked?
I just made some really cool posters for another agency called Watson. I made some posters for the Amy Winehouse upcoming biopic and I was so confident about my comps, I was like oh my god they are going to love it! None of them were selected for the next round. I got paid for the time I worked there, I got to see the film, I got to engage in the project, but in the end I wasn't selected and I know that doesnt speak about who I am or my quality, I mean there are other people reaching out who love what I do in their own films but there is that little something still like oh I would love to work on a big release... I’m currently working on my first well, I work for three or four feature films. Independent ones. Official poster feature films. But I’m currently working on my biggest release so far and I am really happy because it is mostly ninety nine percent that they are going to pick something I make. So, for me it feels like a milestone, like an accomplishment so I feel like the next steps for me are doing more and more big releases. So because that also means more people getting to see my work so that’ll be a very cool feeling I think.
Going the opposite way, back ten years, what advice would you give to yourself at that point now ten years in? At this point you’ve got a lot of experience.
Thats such a heartwarming question. I was just thinking about that the other day so its cool that you’re asking- I dont know I think I’m going to get really corny here. I really love Virginia Woolf. She has this quote from Orlando I believe, that says something like, I'm going to look, it's like three words but I want to quote it as is. [searches through book] Ah, yeah. Here it is. It says: No need to hurry. No need to sparkle. No need to be anybody but oneself.
I always really loved Virginia’s words in that they’re so thought-provoking. In the sense that most of her literature takes you back to your soul. Like, what’s happening in your soul, and your perception of your own solitude. And I think, ten years ago, as I already told you, I thought I would never be a graphic designer, because I hated the college, I wasn't skilled enough as most of my- I thought I wasn't skilled enough as most of my colleagues or classmates, I was getting terrible grades, I was very rebellious and I was like I hate this, fuck college, fuck education. I dont know what I’m going to do with my life… I will never be anyone, I will never make anything out of me, and suddenly it just happened.
“I was very rebellious and I was like I hate this, fuck college, fuck education. I dont know what I’m going to do with my life… I will never be anyone, I will never make anything out of me, and suddenly it just happened.”
So I think…It’s kinda like a paradox. If I go back ten years back and said to me, be patient! or believe in yourself, and blah, blah, blah. I probably wouldnt’ve heard it. I would be like oh sure… and I think I would still have to live through all that frustration to be who I am now. So, I think actually, it's going to be very corny but I would say: thank you. I’m grateful that you haven't stopped looking for yourself. More than an advice, I think I would say thank you. Because of course I would like to, to tell my former self, be patient, everything will be at their own place at some time, but it’s also very nostalgic to think that I am who I am now thats to that less expert, but also more authentic former self that was so troubled and in that troubled feeling I was looking for answers, and those answers got me here ten years later. So, yeah, it’s a paradox.
Because I have certainly much more wisdom to give to that former Aleks at the same time I’m here thanks to his spirit. Not always trying to find something else to do. Like, okay, I hate college but what else can I do? But I think I would also tell him that Virginia Woolf quote. No need to hurry or sparkle, there's no need to be anyone but yourself. I think that's speaking about just a couple minutes ago about being acknowledged and exposure and all that. I think we are always in a hurry to sparkle. So when you said you’re that you’re got your feet in the ground and you’re like theres no actual need for that. Then all that you’re left with is creativity, and I think that's the most honest way of living for an artist. So, yeah I think I would tell me that, if that makes sense.
Yeah, cool! I think that its interesting to kind’ve hear, I suppose you talk about it, it's very like serendipitous in a way, the way things sort’ve turn out. I guess its kind’ve nice to hear in a way. That you dropped out of education but you’re still successful and doing what you want to do. I mean it took awhile but eventually you landed up doing exactly, well not exactly, but, something fulfilling... and yeah, I think that’s very cool!
Of course I think I would tell him, or I would tell anyone, keep up the good work and the effort, and when I say be patient is because we think that, If I make twenty cool posters I’m going to be successful by twenty-one. That's not true. There’s no, there's no whole process that is infallible or flawless.
“No need to hurry. No need to sparkle. No need to be anybody but oneself.”
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